2024 and 2025 Fluke Options Poll

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by Broad Bill

My conclusions are based on many factors. I posted two charts, sex and length comparison, which if you've been on the water for the years you have, you know males are smaller, grow slower and live shorter lives. Or do you wish to dispute that as well? I also posted INDEPENDENT information from federal observers to information provided by commercial operators based on the honor system which shows a major disparity in discard rates reported. Do you dispute that? Reported commercial mortality rates in the SAW range between 10% - 26% of catch and 13% to 36% of landings. Independent Federal Observer data, not questionable science, indicates it could exceed 100% of catch and 200% of landings. Do you dispute that? If that data is remotely close to being true, it means the commercial fishery can kill twice if not more of their annual landings quota in the pursuit of culling the size fish they want to retain which bring the highest catch values. Do you dispute that?

I never said managing the resource from the charts will get any better, I've actually said the opposite which is managing the resource in the manner NMFS has over the last two decades will insure one thing, the ultimate failure of this fishery.

That's it, nothing more, nothing less. You can have the last word, I've said my piece and I'm done with this discussion. Just keep this exchange in mind when NJ's regulation are 2 fish daily at 22" with a 60 day season.

So if you take your eyes off your data charts for 5 minutes , you would actually see that’s pretty much of what I wrote .
Basing charts off inaccurate data gets us no where .

IMO it makes no difference that recreational fisherman here are keeping fish above 18” because if we weren’t the commercial guys will .
IMO the small local commercial boats are also not the problem .
As they don’t get a ton of bycatch in their drags . , because their daily limit is so small .
The bigger 7 day fleet is absolutely the problem . Both sheer quantities being taken from every states resource . As well as much more discards due to longer drags because of high volume .

Making recreational fishing regs that actually closed the season will do nothing IF those larger fish quotas in NC aren’t changed .

With fluke down to 60 cents a pound last week , is even more proof the fluke were over fished through the spawn this winter . Commercially

So stop trying to make it a recreational fisherman’s problem .

.

[Broad Bill]

Originally Posted by hammer4reel

Making recreational fishing regs that actually closed the season will do nothing IF those larger fish quotas in NC aren’t changed .
So stop trying to make it a recreational fisherman’s problem.
.

Please tell me you have me confused with someone else's post on this thread. I've lobbied and advocated for years to change the hardships recreational anglers have endured with these asinine regulations. After everything we've discussed and everything I've posted on this site you think I'm suggesting this is a problem caused by recreational fisherman, you have to be oblivious to what my position has been. If you mean it's a problem recreational anglers have been forced to pay the consequences for, I completely agree. If you're suggesting I've said it's a problem caused by recreational fisherman you're out of your &*^%$%! mind. Sorry to the other members on the site, wasn't expecting such an asinine response.

[frugalfisherman]

Lots of charts and science here but I follow the real scientist.

[reason162]

Originally Posted by Broad Bill

If you retain fish which it appears you do, how many 18" plus fish have you caught over the last 5 years that were males? I"d bet you could count them on one hand.

I kept one fluke in the last 2 years - caught and released 14 fluke over 6lbs from shore last year, 2 over 7lbs 1 over 8. But I'm not your typical fluke angler - I actually see them as game fish and target them as such

The point is even if you lower the size limit to 16", we'll probably still be seeing majority females retained. Further point is, does it even matter re recruitment. Then we circle back to what you consider unreliable data and what the actual scientific community consider settled science.

[reason162]

Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski

And let me take a wild guess that you preferred and still do prefer 17.5 inch fish/option 2 and since what you want is not polling as well, the survey is obviously rigged

Sounds apropos to the age we live in.

[mikdel]

3 at 171/2

[hammer4reel]

Looks like the whole list was accepted by ASMFC as written .
See those that care at the meeting in March

[Broad Bill]

Originally Posted by hammer4reel

Looks like the whole list was accepted by ASMFC as written .
See those that care at the meeting in March

Does the March meeting really matter? The below schedule is from the 2023 NOAA Management Track Assessment Report. Hammer I'd appreciate it if you didn't go ballistic for posting data or schedules real policy decisions are being based on. Note the change in landings between 2013 and 2022 between the commercial and recreational sectors. The commercial sector went from 5,696 metric tons landed in 2013 to 5,683 metric tons in 2013 or essentially status quo. Their catch values however, as they've targeted the harvest of larger higher market value fish, have actually increased over that same period. Main reason recruitment and the spawning stock have taken huge hits. The recreational sector, on the other hand, has declined from 8,806 metric tons in landings for 2013 to 3,916 in 2022, an almost 60% decline and based on the options we're faced with for 2024 and 2025 which mimic 2021 regulations or 6.35 million lbs. in landings, we're headed for an approximate 70% decrease relative to 2013. That would be the lowest landings level for the recreational sector in five decades short of one year in 1989 when landings were 2,566 metric tons. To put that in perspective, in the 80's the commercial sector averaged annual landings of 30 million lbs. or 13,500 metric tons a year. The fishery has never recovered from that onslaught.

So 3 fish at 17.5" with a shorter season, 3 fish at 18" with a longer season, a paper thin slot, no slot, different regulations for southern and northern NJ or different regulations for shore based anglers versus party boats and for hire, does it really matter in the big picture?

Decisions have already been made regarding 2024 and 2025 and March's meeting is simply a check the box procedural requirement based on MSA. We can't fight Town Hall, certainly can't fight the Federal government or compete with the commercial sectors funds and lobbying efforts. I don't mean to be a wet rag but whatever is said or decided at the March meeting is irrelevant to the damage already done to this fishery over the last 25 years and it's only getting worse.

[hammer4reel]

Originally Posted by Broad Bill

Does the March meeting really matter? The below schedule is from the 2023 NOAA Management Track Assessment Report. Hammer I'd appreciate it if you didn't go ballistic for posting data or schedules real policy decisions are being based on. Note the change in landings between 2013 and 2022 between the commercial and recreational sectors. The commercial sector went from 5,696 metric tons landed in 2013 to 5,683 metric tons in 2013 or essentially status quo. Their catch values however, as they've targeted the harvest of larger higher market value fish, have actually increased over that same window. Main reason recruitment and the spawning stock have taken huge hits. The recreational sector, on the other hand, has declined from 8,806 metric tons in landings for 2013 to 3,916 in 2022, an almost 60% decline and based on the options we're faced with for 2024 and 2025 which mimic 2021 regulations or 6.35 million lbs. in landings, we're headed for an approximate 70% decrease relative to 2013. That would be the lowest landings level for the recreational sector in five decades short of one year in 1989 when landings were 2,566 metric tons. To put that in perspective, in the 80's the commercial sector averaged annual landings of 30 million lbs. or 13,500 metric tons a year. The fishery has never recovered from that onslaught.

So 3 fish at 17.5" with a shorter season, 3 fish at 18" with a longer season, a paper thin slot, no slot, different regulations for southern and northern NJ or different regulations for shore based anglers versus party boats and for hire, does it really matter in the big picture?

Decisions have already been made regarding 2024 and 2025 and March's meeting is simply a check the box procedural requirement based on MSA. We can't fight Town Hall, certainly can't fight the Federal government or compete with the commercial sectors funds and lobbying efforts. I don't mean to be a wet rag but whatever is said or decided at the March meeting is irrelevant to the damage already done to this fishery over the last 25 years and it's only getting worse.

Unless the states can come up with a way to stop commercial boats from fishing in Federal waters and taking those landings back to states such as NC . I honestly could care less .
I see NO reason for recreational fisherman to throw back fish those boats end up taking .
Every year they try and put cut backs on the backs of recreational fisherman while allowing a total disregard to those fleets .

I truelly don’t understand how the small commercial fisherman aren’t up in arms about it .
As I said here a ton of times , a NJ based boat can catch 3000 pounds a week while a NC boat can fish right next to them and take 30000 a week .
Makes ZERO sense .

Quotas in States no longer having a fishery need to be addressed . As their only taking from all the rest of the states’


AND if you really look at those numbers can you honestly believe recreational discards are double what the commercial are ?
Thats saying they discard 1/10 , and we discard 1/4
Bad info in , bad info out

[Broad Bill]

Hammer we're in complete agreement on this. No way are recreational discards anywhere near commercial discards in either absolute numbers or as a percentage of catch or landings. North Carolina and Virginia make up just about 50% of the annual commercial harvest and I assume the 7 day boats you're referring to are from those states. They destroyed the southern stock, fish primarily during fall / winter months as well as during the spawn when fish are in highly concentrated schools and most vulnerable to netting. The waste from their netting I'd bet the ranch exceeds their entire catch quota for the entire year which is a disgrace in how this fishery is being managed. And yes, fish the recreational sector are forced to release are harvested or killed by commercials in their offshore migration in the fall, inshore migration in the spring or while stacked up wintering offshore. It's exactly the same reason we lost the winter flounder fishery, no stock can be pounded year round and during the spawn and survive. This one won't either so truthfully next week's meeting to me is anti-climatic because decisions as always have already been made and none of the options will address what's ailing this fishery if management doesn't address commercial regulations and the multitude of negative impacts their practices are having on the stock. In the big picture once again, the recreational angler is going to get the proverbial short end of the stick and nothing is being done for two more years to address the issues effecting the fishery.