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  #31  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:46 AM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
Name one fish you can catch in New Jersey waters 12 months out of the year. That is part of the problem, that and a million people fishing for over 200 types of fish, the sun doesn't rise and set because of fluke.
Andy I might be missing your point but as Dan just pointed out summer flounder is one of the most vital and sought after fish in the Mid-Atlantic States. The sun may not rise and set based on the health of the fishery for all but try convincing party, for hire and commercial of that when peoples livelihoods are being horse traded and put at risk. Balance is everything. Take away summer flounder as we're seeing today and that applies more pressure on other stocks. porgies, ling, sea bass, bonito anything that will make up a day's catch and keep people in business.

The Raritan River isn't the only river in NJ but you have a passion for keeping it clean. Summer flounder isn't the only game in town but if it fails and it has it's going to have significant social and economic impacts to many people in many industries across many states. The problems facing the fishery in my mind are clear, we need to convince fisheries management the current regulations are imposing more harm than good. That's the mission and there's people working diligently to get those points on the table and addressed. Who knows if we'll be successful but as the saying goes it won't be for lack of effort.
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:03 PM
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reason162 reason162 is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

A probable scenario playing out in front of our eyes is...the fluke are fine, but they're just leaving.

Conspiracy theories are entertaining to read, and it's in our nature to point fingers and find someone to blame. But if in 10 years what happened to NC happens to us, ie fluke keeps migrating north, the humans to blame would probably sit on the board of Exxon-Mobile.

More to the point: Since fluke trend northwards as they age to begin with, and if the entire range is shifting north due to climate change...the fight in the immediate future is to relax size limits for NJ. I'm okay with that as long as the science (not "economic impact") bears it out.

Last edited by reason162; 07-17-2019 at 10:10 PM..
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  #33  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:51 PM
NoLimit NoLimit is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

No this BS again. How exactly is a 7/10 increase in air temp making the fluke move north?! The answer is It Isnít. A shift in wind will change the water temp 20 times as much.
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  #34  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:29 PM
Honger Honger is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by dakota560 View Post
First Honger you're a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being. Inappropriate ethnic slurs have no place on this site or anywhere else.
LOL. You know what sir? I am an "Asian" and a "yellow" person. If you couldn't read the between lines of my joke or sarcasm, you did not pay attention to the preceding posts that prompted my response in sarcastic manner.

Why is it that when a fish like crappie and fluke are being sold at a market it is then noted that it is being sold at an "asian market"? I have seen things sold at "non-asian" markets that I thought, why TF is this being sold at this price or why?, but no one ever says that "Oh wow, I see this thing being sold at "Caucasian Market, middle east market, black market, etc.".

I have heard on boats when I go fishing, on this forum, and in tackle shops, how "Asians and yellow people" are culpurits for most of illegal fishing. I even heard that we wiped out black fish in Atlantic because we use a secret bait called sea urchins. Pretty ridiculous. Oh yeah, I also heard that we wiped out Mackeral because we like mackeral sushi so much and "we" pay premium price for it. "Live Fish Market"? yes, we wiped out the fish because we thirst for live fish. Very educated judgement considering that there is 1 Asian out of 30 people in NY/NJ area (I think).

Let me say this, most of you guys preach "conservation", "dont waste meat", "save the breeders". Well you know what? are most of you so privileged that you fillet all of your fish to just harvest 1/3 of your catch? How much meat are being wasted by throwing away the rest of the fish after you fillet them? Maybe we didnt have to take 25 seabass home if we all knew how to utilize our catch to the fullest. There is a country, if you care to look, that has zero fishing regulations, however they just have some guidelines for people to follow. Their fishery is doing well, both recreational and commercial, maybe they are doing something right that this country cant figure out?

If a simple comment that I made "I thought Asians wiped out the fishes" constitutes me as a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being, what do we call 99% of the population that are living in this country?

As for lack of Fluke, maybe they don't feel like or have the need to come to Jersey shore anymore? ever think about that? I used to go to Atlantic City often, but not anymore, like most other people.

Problem? Call me. 201-681-5132
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2019, 08:21 AM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by Honger View Post
LOL. You know what sir? I am an "Asian" and a "yellow" person. If you couldn't read the between lines of my joke or sarcasm, you did not pay attention to the preceding posts that prompted my response in sarcastic manner.

Why is it that when a fish like crappie and fluke are being sold at a market it is then noted that it is being sold at an "Asian market"? I have seen things sold at "non-asian" markets that I thought, why TF is this being sold at this price or why?, but no one ever says that "Oh wow, I see this thing being sold at "Caucasian Market, middle east market, black market, etc.".

I have heard on boats when I go fishing, on this forum, and in tackle shops, how "Asians and yellow people" are culprits for most of illegal fishing. I even heard that we wiped out black fish in Atlantic because we use a secret bait called sea urchins. Pretty ridiculous. Oh yeah, I also heard that we wiped out Mackerel because we like mackerel sushi so much and "we" pay premium price for it. "Live Fish Market"? yes, we wiped out the fish because we thirst for live fish. Very educated judgement considering that there is 1 Asian out of 30 people in NY/NJ area (I think).

Let me say this, most of you guys preach "conservation", "dont waste meat", "save the breeders". Well you know what? are most of you so privileged that you fillet all of your fish to just harvest 1/3 of your catch? How much meat are being wasted by throwing away the rest of the fish after you fillet them? Maybe we didnt have to take 25 seabass home if we all knew how to utilize our catch to the fullest. There is a country, if you care to look, that has zero fishing regulations, however they just have some guidelines for people to follow. Their fishery is doing well, both recreational and commercial, maybe they are doing something right that this country cant figure out?

If a simple comment that I made "I thought Asians wiped out the fishes" constitutes me as a disgusting individual and poor excuse for a human being, what do we call 99% of the population that are living in this country?

As for lack of Fluke, maybe they don't feel like or have the need to come to Jersey shore anymore? ever think about that? I used to go to Atlantic City often, but not anymore, like most other people.

Problem? Call me. 201-681-5132
Definition of an Asian Market:

An Asian supermarket is a category of grocery stores in Western countries that stocks items imported from the multiple countries in East, South and Southeast Asia. Supermarkets in Asia generally (except for the Middle East) have no equivalent to the "Asian" supermarkets of the West; foodstuffs in each respective Asian country have vastly different regulations and supply chains from one another, so stores are localized for each country's tastes and only carry locally approved items for that market. Examples of this: seaweed snacks, originate in Japan where they are salty or savory, in Thailand they are often spicy and locally produced.

An Asian Market is not a politically incorrect or derogatory term.

The comment you replied to about crappy was my comment and I was emphasizing two things and two things only. First I never saw them sold in any market and the price I thought was ridiculous at 17.99 / lb. Nothing derogatory was said or intended about culture. Apparently someone else thought your reply was inappropriate also as it was deleted so no I didn't read in between the lines as probably most who read your post didn't either.

All other points from your recent post are your words, not mine. Find it interesting you take exception to me criticizing what I thought were derogatory comments about Asians in your post yet you go on a tirade about this country's culture in your most recent rant. If you find this country's culture that offensive, you have options like everyone else.

Your statement "As for lack of Fluke, maybe they don't feel like or have the need to come to Jersey shore anymore? ever think about that? I used to go to Atlantic City often, but not anymore, like most other people."

I must say thank God I actually never have thought about that. If I had, I'd start worrying. Are you saying you don't go to Atlantic City anymore because of the onerous fluke regulations in place or fluke don't come to New Jersey because they don't like Atlantic City? Wasn't sure exactly the point you're trying to make.

Fyi, not smart posting your phone number on the internet, might consider deleting that.

Last edited by dakota560; 07-20-2019 at 08:18 PM..
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  #36  
Old 07-19-2019, 09:57 AM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by reason162 View Post
A probable scenario playing out in front of our eyes is...the fluke are fine, but they're just leaving.

Conspiracy theories are entertaining to read, and it's in our nature to point fingers and find someone to blame. But if in 10 years what happened to NC happens to us, ie fluke keeps migrating north, the humans to blame would probably sit on the board of Exxon-Mobile.

More to the point: Since fluke trend northwards as they age to begin with, and if the entire range is shifting north due to climate change...the fight in the immediate future is to relax size limits for NJ. I'm okay with that as long as the science (not "economic impact") bears it out.
I try following your logic and believe you to be an intelligent person, but your posts and insatiable obsession with science can do no wrong has me perplexed as well as your theories without facts to support them, the same scenario you criticize others of.

Maybe summer flounder left southern regions because of the first chart. NC and Va make up and have made up between 50% - 60% of the commercial summer flounder harvest for years. First chart reflects commercial harvest for the years '80 - '17 from 66th stock assessment and the 70's were even worse regarding NC's and Va's combined percentage of the overall commercial harvest. In 1979, 26 million lbs of the 39 million lbs commercially harvested were by NC and Va. In 1980 21 million of the 31 million lbs and in 1984 22 million of the 38 million lbs came from those two southern states. Maybe what appears to be a northerly migration of the southern biomass is in fact an obliteration of it due to over harvest by commercial fishing efforts no different than what happened in NJ years ago to whiting, ling, mackerel and cod as commercial efforts destroyed the local fisheries and the stock appeared to moved north.

What proof is there that southern stocks moved north due to changes in water temperatures......NONE. Is it more plausible to believe the two states that have 50-60% of the commercial harvest, two of the largest commercial fleets on the east coast decimated the summer flounder fishery biomass in their own local southern waters, in my opinion it is.

Large fluke migrate north seeking out colder water is your theory. Guess ling, sea bass and porgies which are all colder water species with east west migration patterns comparable to fluke don't have those same problems. Guess that's also why when the first wave of fluke come in they seek out skinny warmer water in back bays because they love cold water so much.......lol! Guess we get a surge in July, August and September of bigger fish when the water warms up because summer flounder prefer colder temperatures, all facts that contradict your position

I'd love for you to share which part of the science you're so enamored with. The part that gave us the second and third charts about recreational catch now based on "FES" Fishing Effort Survey or new MRIP versus "CHTS" Coastal Household Telephone Survey or old MRIP which cost us dearly in catch quotas for 2019 and will for foreseeable years if changes aren't made. And most of the incremental catch is said to be from shore based efforts, imagine that Look at the numbers, they're off the charts. Has anyone taken the time to review the newly improved mail order form being used. Attached link has it.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/recre...-effort-survey

Half way down under "Supporting Documents" click on FES Sample Survey and it will show you a 2-part PDF form. Aside from the bizarre questions being asked, there's not one question concerning actual fish landed or discarded. Net result is recreational anglers are being assessed almost 7 million lbs. more a year because of a new data collection process as speculative as the old.

Or should we bow down to science which has reduced relative recruitment strength for over 30 years, or science which has reduced spawning stock biomass and the biomass in general over the last 17 years or should we honor science which due to size increases has removed the recreational communities fishing access to approximately 30% of the biomass which commercial operators now exclusively harvest as a result of our discards along with the 60% share of the catch quota they already benefit from. And let's not forget the science which just dished out a 40% increase to the commercial quota for '19. Or maybe we should honor science which due to regulations appears to have destroyed age classes 0-2 of the biomass due to increases in recreational size limits over the last twenty years. There's sufficient NMFS data which I've shared with the board to support each of these facts.

So please enlighten us with how science has benefited this failed fishery for the last two to three decades because quite frankly the data, THEIR DATA, paints a completely different picture.

As I've said we need science, but we need accurate data from scientific efforts and we need intelligent decisions being made based on that data. Not decisions based on legislation adopted 43-years ago not addressing the issues causing a prolonged and substantial decline to the fishery.
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Last edited by dakota560; 07-19-2019 at 10:06 AM..
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  #37  
Old 07-19-2019, 11:30 AM
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reason162 reason162 is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by dakota560 View Post
I try following your logic...
Re NC, you have it backwards: they were allocated the lion's share of fluke because they had more fluke decades ago than any other state. They haven't been able to fill their quotas for years in home waters...because the fluke have migrated north. Ditto BSB, ditto hundreds of other species, in response to climate change.

Whether you believe in climate change or not, it's happening. The fish don't care what you can or cannot wrap your head around...sorry.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0430141611.htm

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/heal...-20180518.html

https://phys.org/news/2018-06-climat...r-fishing.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-shifts-north/

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...ne-cod-pollock

https://e360.yale.edu/features/feeli...-cooler-waters
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  #38  
Old 07-19-2019, 03:27 PM
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AndyS AndyS is offline
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Question Re: Fishery Management

I did a tilefish trip a few year back and we were BAILING blueline tilefish like porgies. The limit went to 7 blueline tilefish for NJ boats, ooops not a word was spoken or posted about that. Now tell me how the sun rises and sets on these pathetic fluke, I'm waiting.

For the recreational fishery, the Council recommended an open season from May 1 to October 31, when blueline tilefish are available to most anglers throughout the Mid-Atlantic. Recreational bag limits would be set at 7 fish per person for inspected for-hire vessels, 5 fish per person for uninspected for-hire vessels, and 3 fish per person for private vessels. In addition, the Council recommended mandatory permitting and reporting of golden and blueline tilefish for both for-hire and private recreational fishing in order to develop better information on recreational tilefish landings in the Mid-Atlantic.
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  #39  
Old 07-19-2019, 03:41 PM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by reason162 View Post
Re NC, you have it backwards: they were allocated the lion's share of fluke because they had more fluke decades ago than any other state. They haven't been able to fill their quotas for years in home waters...because the fluke have migrated north. Ditto BSB, ditto hundreds of other species, in response to climate change.

Whether you believe in climate change or not, it's happening. The fish don't care what you can or cannot wrap your head around...sorry.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0430141611.htm

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/heal...-20180518.html

https://phys.org/news/2018-06-climat...r-fishing.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-shifts-north/

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...ne-cod-pollock

https://e360.yale.edu/features/feeli...-cooler-waters
This dialogue would be more productive if you answered questions with facts. None of the material discrepancies in science I've identified or pointed out are included in your selective reply.

Your statement "NC, you have it backwards: they were allocated the lion's share of fluke because they had more fluke decades ago than any other state". Explain then how the first chart doesn't support that statement. North Carolina wasn't close to other states until the 70's when they started harvesting their offshore winter commercial fishery right around the same time the fishery started it's collapse into the early 80's. Numbers don't lie.

Apologies for the size font but read the second attachment about the NC commercial summer flounder fishery. 99% of their landings take place during winter trawls. Translated, 99% of the state with the largest commercial quota occurs during the summer flounder primary spawn. Absolutely smart fisheries management. That statement is followed up with "It's not clear what's responsible for the decrease in age class fish 0-1 in NC's landings" You think maybe they ended white side up on the bottom of the ocean. Funny how when their's and Virginia's landings sky-rocketed in the mid 70's, the biomass began it's collapse in the early 80's.

To be clear, I believe climate change is happening and needs to be dealt with, you'd be a fool to believe otherwise. What I don't believe in is the extent of impact people are suggesting it's having on the fishery. I guess the BSB biomass and porgy populations migrated back south when regulations were established to address commercial over-harvest as we see those fisheries rebounding locally today. I believe in areas with less commercial pressure, expansion of fish stocks is happening which theorists will immediately attribute to climate change related movement north. I seem to remember you schooling the site about correlation and causation, you might consider heeding your own advice. I guess we should also believe climate change wasn't an issue between 1989 - 2002 when the biomass increased by 900% and the local fishery was in excellent condition because at that time recreational size increase legislation just started initiating an imbalance in the gender composition of SSB and an unprecedented decrease in recruitment strength we've been living the negative impacts of for almost two decades.

The facts speak for themselves. If you can't wrap your head around that or support your positions with data from fisheries management.......sorry.
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  #40  
Old 07-19-2019, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Fishery Management

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Originally Posted by dakota560 View Post
To be clear, I believe climate change is happening and needs to be dealt with, you'd be a fool to believe otherwise. What I don't believe in is the extent of impact people are suggesting it's having on the fishery.
Your posts re fluke center around 2 themes: sex ratio imbalance and unsustainable commercial harvesting. Neither of these are born out by the data. You are going against the grain of scientific consensus as it stands today.

Your goal is to relax size limits. Great! If the biomass is shifting north, and size increases in the northern range vs the southern range (and that IS the scientific consensus), you arrive at your goal of looser size restrictions by aligning yourself with the scientific community.

In other words...your prolific efforts up to this point is largely misguided. Focus on the accepted science of climate change and how it's influencing migratory patterns, and you end up in the same place. Except then you'd largely be making sense doing it.
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