NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Just got done listening to the tail end of the Mid Atlantic Fisheries Management Council meeting. Today the subject was Fluke. Dave Daily (Dales) from the NJ Chapter of the RFA was on the call as well.

Just in case you were not aware, based on stock assessments were we looking at a 40 some % reduction in quotas for 2017. That means stricter regulations.

The initial rumors getting floated around were we'd be at 2 fish @ 19 inches.

This is not set in stone since there is a lot more to follow over the next few months but, based on what I heard it seems more likely 3 or 4 fish @ 19 inches... If 3 fish, a longer season, if 4 fish, a shorter season.

So, I guess we should be happy it's not as bad as we initially thought, right?

WRONG!! This happens every year... They float doom and gloom regs, throw us a last minute bone with an extra fish, we feel better and drop our guards...

The problem with this line of thinking is the cumulative effect is has... Just like the old anecdote of the frog in the pot of water on the stove... You put him in there when the water is boiling and he jumps right out... If however you put him in cold water and raise the heat gradually, he doesn't notice and before he knows it, he's boiled.

Same thing with the Fluke regs.... They take 1 fish from us this year, another next year and 5 years from now we are wondering how the hell we got boiled.

We all need to stay vigilant here, not let our guards down and continue to fight for our rights every day and every year.....

Some may be thinking how can I help... I'm only one person and only have so much time and energy to fight... The good news is we have local and national organizations you can contribute to and as a collective have a much larger voice.

Here are 3 examples.
- http://www.joinrfa.org/join/Recreational Fishing Alliance
- http://ssfff.org/ Save the Summer Flounder Fishery Fund
- http://www.jcaa.org/ Jersey Coast Anglers Associations

Some might be thinking, I've contributed to these organizations in the past and what have they done for me? Fact is they all go to these meetings representing our interests, lobby politically, invest and support in better science needed to assess fish stocks and they are our collective voice.

Just think if our interests weren't being represented where we'd be....Left unchecked and to their own and others well organized environmental and social group agendas, we wouldn't be allowed to fish at all... Are you thinking that assumption is being over stated here??? Just google Federal Marine Protected Areas and you'll see what's happening...

Thanks for bearing with my rant here and please get involved in supporting these and other organizations. Give what you can and take solace that you did what you could to save our great sport for future generations. It's worth the investment and these organizations deserve and need our support!!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

I'll continue the fight and funding but damn, these regulators are ignorant. Forcing us to keep only the large female fluke is wrong, no matter what the bag limit is !!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

There was some talk about that too Larry.. A lot of that was a result of the study the SSFFF helped fund. A lot of time, money and effort was spent gathering data in regards to size and sex. That data could in the future lead to slot fish or other regs to encourage the release of the large female fish.

Problem is that information needs to be reviewed and accepted by other scientists in the next peer review so will not be considered in time for the 2017 regs.

Lots of moving parts and bureaucracy at work here Larry. We all know how that goes...We just need to let it run it's coarse and keep the pressure on.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Its all such bullshit. . . . . . They **** you no matter what measure they decide to take to help rebuild the stock. Its a loose, loose..... They make it 4 fish at 19 next year, then the following its gonna be 3 fish at 21, then to 2 fish at 24, till you cant keep shit anymore. Only way your going to get some fish to have for dinner is going to be buy it or be a pirate.... AND IM NOT SPENDING $16.99 A POUND FOR 6 MONTH OLD FISH:D;)!!!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

All the more reason for people to get and stay involved. Got to keep the pressure on and make sure our interests are represented.

I know you and your Dad are big supporters and have never missed one of RFA fund raiser trips. Much appreciated and a lot more we need to get done Jeff!!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

I'm done with it all.

I understand as rec guys we have to keep up the fight but its disheartening.

My biggest dilemma is teaching my kid to follow the rules and regs, yet teach him they are not fair.

Next spring will be different. Time to preserve and build the stocks on my own level.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

They have to make exceptions for party boats! Those guys will go broke and ancillary businesses such as ice, sandwiches, soft drink and adult beverage vendors will suffer as well.
I have no financial interest in any party boat and do not know anyone employed in the trade.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Yeah dad and i will never stop fighting the good fight. Both will be RFA members for life. I just wish the words from this fishing community had more of an influence on decisions they make. Sometimes it feels like its falling into deaf ears when we speak out about what this fishing industry has become and what these regulations are doing to us.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

I doubt very much there will be any exceptions for party boats June. We're all going to swim or sink together.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

I guess it will be catch and kill for me. If I can't keep them they are not going back for the draggers.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

This is extremely disheartening.

I wonder if the regulators realize that they're putting undue pressure on other species which are more accessible and less regulated such as ling and porgies?

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Thanks for the info

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Having listened to most of the Fluke session (some 3.5 hrs) understand that any /all options at this point are subject to change once the 2016 Wave 5 Landing data comes in today or early next week.
Granted I don't expect much to change but the reduction mandate percentage will fluctuate up or down based on those numbers.

As Gerry stated however this is the government and the with that said the restrictions on what they can and cant do are still stacked against us as the system is admittedly broken so major change has to happen. Another reason NOT to give up the fight as if it doesn't get done for 2017 there is the future for us and future generations that need our support to facilitate that change.
Without our voices its easy for them to remain status quo.


Some positive things:
- Most of our concerns, (EX: Slot fish, Not taking only females, Bad data in, bad regs out, different methods in the future for Stock Assessment, Leaving 2017 Status quo as per 2016 regs until a new bench mark Stock assessment model can be implemented, The huge financial impact on NJ shore fishing related business, were introduced at the meeting and at least discussions have begun. Where all that goes remain to be seen.
- Congressman Frank Pallone attended the conference and gave an impassioned speech on the negative impact the proposed reductions would have on NJ ( for whatever that's worth but at least he showed up on our behalf)
There were some "interesting" ideas from the public comments read into the session. Not worth elaborating on yet unless they end up in the final document.
- Also those in attendance raised our concerns fluently and accurately regarding flaws in the Stock assessments that could not be denied.

The document addendum 28 will be finalized after the wave 5 data is introduced, then opened for public comment sometime in the near future and then go to the individual states to decide what options they will present to meet the mandated reductions. Probably wont be over or decided until sometime in March

Stay tuned and stay ANGRY

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

http://thumb101.shutterstock.com/dis...-119908333.jpg
Next years fluking outfit!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Accu sharp/2333-9

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

There are more of us than there are of "THEM". There are too many coolers, bags, holds, boxes, boats, marinas, docks etc. for the officers to check. They may be able to issue a few citations but they can't be everywhere at the same time. We are being challenged to obey regulations that are at best, questionable for reasons that are equally unrealistic. The real victims are the charter and party boat businesses. While the private boats can afford to be pelagic pirates, the pay to fish businesses can't. A massive day of protest might be worth consideration in order to demonstrate our outrage and distrust of the scientific studies and the subsequent findings. Are they trying to save fish for the future? The future is now and as far as fluke fishing is concerned, it has always been now. I can't ever remember a summer when I never caught a fluke and it's been many, many summers ago since I caught my first 14" summer flounder. I still have a picture of me from over 50 years ago smiling from ear to ear with my trophy.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

How do you suggest "we" protest? We're not walking out on a job, or doing a job action, so what is your idea?

I agree, there are a lot more of us then there are of them - but "we" get nowhere. Action usually results from peaceful and thoughtful opposition, but we as a community truly have to unite and buy into this kind of movement. "We" don't have a union backing us, nor do we have many powerful lobbyists who can make a difference. This unity has not been accomplished in my lifetime, and I truly hope we all find a way to fight this battle the right way!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

And don't fool yourselves - if you're going to resort to piracy and be a blatant rule breaker, the law enforcement side will step up their game and employ more officers to enforce the law. I've seen state police and even local police get involved in conservation and F&G violations - and the coast guard is always available to get involved and have F&G tag along.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

sure seems there thinking is based on while knowing we are taking mostly females, thats they feel those said females got an extra three years to breed ( from 14-18) instead of being in someones cooler if the size limit were reduced.
and that raising it once again allows those same said females another year to breed.
also many bay fishermen early in the seasons are catching lots of fluke puking up their own fry. before bait shows up. wonder how much of that is also going on.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

[QUOTE=Reel Class;469282]How do you suggest "we" protest? We're not walking out on a job, or doing a job action, so what is your idea?

I will repeat. If you send shorts back into the water dead so the draggers can't take them they will get the message. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Piracy and rule breaking is the only choice recreational guys have anymore to justify the sport. If you believe law enforcement will step up their efforts than why do you suggest they currently turn a blind eye to the bucket brigade on every jetty along the coast to guys that keep every short fluke, striper or blackfish with no oversight whatsoever.

Years ago there were NO restrictions on fluke, NO size or creel limits. Pretty sure that was the case in the 70's. Don't remember what year they imposed limits but when they did I believe the fluke limits were 12 inches and 10 fish! There obviously were less recreational boats fishing back in the day but there were probably more party boats, and every one was railed on weekends. With the higher creel limits or no creel limits, I'd bet there were more fish taken by less anglers when it came to winter and summer flounder. Fish were abundant EVERY year.

What changed? There was never the commercial fleet we have today. The average person could actually afford fish at the market. It wasn't !$@~*% $50 a pound for a fillet! There was A&P, Acme and Shop Rite that had fish markets with very reasonable prices. Now you have Kings, Whole Foods and all these specialty retail stores that charge absolutely insane prices for fish we release every day! The commercial fleet has exploded and our resource has imploded and to add insult to injury proportionately recreational guys have a more stringent set of rules to operate under than the guys causing the problem. Anyone not seeing that has their head up their ass. And how much illegal catch do you think hits the docks every day, that number has to be ENORMOUS.

Case in point, what lead to the collapse of the striper fishery in the 70's / 80's. They were decimated by commercial netters along the coast in particular in Virginia and North Carolina. States whose economy in part depended on the ocean wiped them out with indiscriminate netting. Fish of all sizes were taken, breeders and shorts as the body of fish migrated along the coast. I have to find the video from either Virginia or North Carolina I believe years ago with a pick up truck hauling a purse seine along the beach and dragging thousands of bass on shore. You'll throw up watching this video. Open up bass fishing to commercial again and see how long the fishery takes to collapse, less than a few years would be my guess. What destroyed the weakfish population, purse seiners along the coast and netters in Delaware Bay. What killed the whiting and ling fishery in the 80's and 90's, small mesh netters which killed and culled everything. A fishery I thought would never be effected by commercial pressure black fish. That was until they figured out a technique to trawl over rocks (roller trawling) and the Asian restaurant market put a premium price on live black fish. Try navigating the western edge of the Mud Hole at certain times of year, there's so many fish pot markers it's like running an obstacle course. Any fishery with a sustainable market is being exploited and the resource is being taken away from the recreational angler.

Recreational anglers unfortunately have no strong organized lobbyists to push through legislation representing our interests. Plain and simple. We're the classic case of the tail wagging the dog. Every year in recent memory we bitch and moan about regulations and every year we get a smaller piece of the pie. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. We've been in this cycle for 30 years. From no daily limits and no creel sizes to possibly two fish at 19 inches while 14 inch fish are being sold at market for $16.99 a pound.

We're not in the process of losing our sport, we've lost it to ^&%$#$% politicians who are lining their own pockets and a powerful retail industry with lobbying clout we can only hope for. How much tonnage of flounder and fluke go to market every year. That number has to be staggering and these are the fish we're being asked to throw back. Flounder fishing has for all practical purposes been closed now for what 7-9 years. Where is the rebound in that stock. It's at Kings, Whole Food and all the new up and coming yuppy retail stores who are making millions of dollars on a resource taken from us.

So Captain Allen, do I advocate piracy and ignoring regulations no I don't. I've adhered to them like most of us for all these years. BUT our sport and your livelihood is being taken away and personally as I've said before until the regulations address both the real cause of the problem and more so govern everyone equally I'm going with self regulation. As others have suggested on this site, the bigger picture is this is all headed towards pay per catch legislation and salt water licenses. The ocean's resources don't belong to Washington, Albany or Trenton and while I believe there needs to be management and oversight, until it's managed with everyone's interest considered I won't recognize it. Developing a plan that addresses the real problem and provides hope for the future would be a good start. It's the equivalent of a company that isn't doing well and has one lay off after another. They address the problem by cutting cost and firing long term employees. Too many times they don't address what's causing the problem on the revenue line. Formula for a slow death. Recreational anglers are unfortunately the long term employee! We're in a slow death spiral and if you follow the trend line how long does everyone think 2 or 3 fish at 19 or 20 inches will last before morphing into, the same as winter flounder did, a moratorium on the fishery. If you think that's not possible my guess would be it's right around the corner!

Check out the below link and tell me if it doesn't identify the cause of the problem. And keep in mind these are JUST reported results, wouldn't be surprised between discard at sea and black market the numbers are double what's reported. And yet the powers to be continue penalizing recreational anglers for their exploitation of a public resource!

http://www.fishingnj.org/netusa3.htm

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

This is long but please read.
For years, recreational fishermen have willingly participated in fisheries management, abiding by increasing regulatory measures. These have included lower bag limits as well as higher minimum size requirements. We have done this because we have been led to believe stocks will improve and a return to reasonable allowable catches will resume. This is supported by testimony given Monday by both the Coast guard as well as an enforcement officer. Specifically, the coast guard increased fisheries boarding’s and the violation rate dropped to 1.3% from 5.9% a year earlier. (tab 5).
I attended the council meeting in Baltimore and was appalled by what I heard the council mention. The council admitted they have been regulating this fishery for 24 years and other than irate fisherman, has nothing to show for it. The current management measures assume better data by 2022. So in 24 years they have not been able to put forth a viable, accurate, agreeable measurement of the size of the fluke fishery nor have they been able to accurately measure the demand recreational fisherman put upon that fishery. So to put that timespan into context, over the previous 24 years, Google was invented, smartphones have flourished, and we have gone to war with Iraq, twice. The world trade center was destroyed and a new freedom tower has been built. I’m not clear why the council is unable to produce an accurate number of fish and a better estimate of the number of fisherman. It should not be anywhere near as complicated as any the items previously mentioned.
The proposal to further decrease the recreational quota by 40% is untenable and will have serious unintended consequences, including losing the support of the constituents they serve.
Every year the quota is reduced and recreational fishermen are squeezed with lower limits and higher minimum sizes. These reductions are all based on data that you willingly and arrogantly admit is flawed. The recreational community passionately believes the science is completely flawed. Simply because, they as participants, do not see or experience what you are telling them. If there was some believable science or data to substantiate and prove the stocks were indeed at risk, fisherman would help. However, there is no tangible evidence to show the stock is in danger. The issue from my perspective is not the quantity of fluke, it is the size of the fluke we are catching. This summer most days we caught dozens of 16-17.99999” fluke that we had to throw back. How many of these perfectly edible viable fish died because some model tells me I had to throw it back, even gut hooked fish. I’m sorry but that is not conservation.
The unintended consequence first and foremost will lead to devastating losses in the already struggling for hire fleet, bait and tackle shops, marinas, etc. Secondly, some recreational participants will no longer support these unsubstantiated quota reductions. This final straw will provide them motivation to just ignore the rules and keep whatever they want.
It is imperative for the recreational community and the fisheries regulators get on the same page. To do that, the following framework is proposed:

1. Establish parity with commercial size limits. It is simply not equitable that commercial fishermen can keep 14" fluke and those size limit never change. Move the recreational limit to 14", allowing people to keep a limit of fluke. Conversely, increase the commercial size limit so there is a minimum size for both constituents. Again, the fluke stock is abundant and the current bag limit (5 fish) is reasonable. However, the increasing size limit is the problem.
2. Institute a slot limit. Current regulations are forcing fisherman to harvest the bigger female breeding stock, which negatively impacts the spawning biomass. This is totally counterproductive to preserving the stock and what we are trying to accomplish. I urge you to incorporate this important and relevant information to your models. In addition to a slot limit gut hooked fish should be kept and counted against the limit. There is no reason to throw a 17” gut hooked fish over the side.
3. Improve science and data collection. For many years NOAA has been asked to update the stock assessment and data collection techniques used to survey anglers. Both the assessment and survey data are inadequate and thus are providing misleading outputs to your model. As the saying goes, garbage in garbage out.
Before making such drastic reductions, it is imperative the stock assessment be updated as soon as possible to get a better understanding of the benchmark and measure the impact of regulatory measures. Party boat captains are simply the best source to measure the health of the stock. Utilize the VTR that they are required to complete. Its widely acknowledged the survey data (MRFFS and MRIP) is inaccurate. My guess is 75% of the fluke captured are caught by the for-hire fleet. NOAA has substantial resources and should have adequate funding to leverage technology to make more accurate assumptions about the biomass as well as angler effort.
4. Measure the effects of the recent quota reductions. Regulations need time to work. Changing the bag, size limits and season every year is a disservice as we are not able to see the benefit of the increased regulations. Let's see what happens with the status quo until the science improves.
5. The way we fluke fish has changed. Many anglers are changing the way they fish which may have implications on the fishery. Today more anglers are using bucktails, large teaser hooks and artificial baits to target fluke. Utilizing this methodology cuts down on gut hooked fish. It still happens, but not where near the extent of dragging bait on Kahle hooks. This needs to be taken in to account in surveys and models.
I implore the fisheries council and NOAA to not reduce the recreational quota on fluke. Implementing such a drastic reduction based on flawed science will disenfranchise the entire recreational fishing community and they will lose whatever support remains. The result is people will simply keep what they want and the biomass will certainly suffer.

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Agreed!!

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Google the meaning of " platitude ".

Re: NJ 2017 Fluke Regulations
 

Interesting response.

Gonna respond by paragraph.

Paragraph #1) If you believe this - you should check out how some of the six pack boats were doing in the month of October while doing catch/release blackfishing. Killing stuff isn't the only reason people fish - FYI.

Paragraph #2) The 13" minimum size limit was put in place in the early 80's, actually the very early 80's and there was no bag limit in place. There was uproar. I remember this well because I was a young kid, just getting into fishing, and my uncle was a regular on the NK3 and Shamrock - we would go with him - we would hear the old timers bitching. You are right there were less recreational boats around, but there were more shorebound anglers WITH MORE ACCESS and they caught/kept what they wanted. And you're right fish were more abundant every year - especially winter flounder. I don't ever remember seeing F&G around anywhere in my youth; nor did I remember seeing the USCG and State Police around as much as they are today.

Paragraph #3) Agreed. But when people wanted fish, and they had the time, they went fishing. People just didn't catch fish for food - they used them for other purposes. Case in point - we knew a guy that used to flounder fish in Will's Hole at the base of the 35 bridge in PPB (this is well before Kingsbridge Marina was there). The guy used to fish 2 tides, and fill his bucket with postage stamp sized flounder and bigger ones - what did he do with them? Fertilizer for his garden. :eek:

Paragraph #4) I agree too. But don't forget about the Russians and the processing ships. They destroyed the whiting fishery also. And also don't forget about the gillnetters that destroyed the weakish population.

The rest? I agree wholeheartedly.

The bottom line is MORE GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT. With a new administration in place, that seems to have a differing agenda, maybe we can make some headway?