Is it just me...?
 

Is it just me or does this "research quota" seem like another big fat bribe being forced down the working mans throat.

$3000 for 3 more weeks of fluke fishing? Just wait till the state or the feds figure out that they can get away with this!

I don't blame the guys that bought into --they're trying to stay afloat-- but it is bad news.

This is the equiv of what the feds are calling "Catch Shares." Simply put: the guy with the most money will keep fishing while the ones who are just paying ther bills will get washed away with the tide.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I always wondered if this RSA crapola was all a test on the goverment and affiliatede bodies, to see who was willing to pay to continue to fish. I mean the best fluke fishing "could" be yet to come, and to see all these boats pay the money for a little more time seems like a "trap" to me.

I really hope we are all wrong on this and it is just what it is and the catch shares are not even a thought in the future.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I'm glad you see it too.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

It's just another tax.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Overall I don't like the idea of the Permit, but if the 3 weeks of fishing produce big fish and then intern attract big crowds, the capt's will take advantage of the opportunity for the following years, but as said it can be a trap to pay extra money, especiallly when you can be fishing for a different species without paying $3000 and still hopefully making good money.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Is it 3 weeks or they fish until they catch the amount of pounds they purchased ?

Re: Is it just me...?
 

IT JUST GOES TOGETHER WITH PAYING FOR A SALTWATER LICENSE AND RAISING THE PRICE EACH YEAR,AND WHO KNOWS WE WILL BE PAYING FOR A FLUKE STAMP:eek: A STRIPER STAMP AND SO ON DOWN THE LINE..LAND OF THE FREE:rolleyes:I CANT TELL...I WILL STILL FISH CAUSE ITS WHAT I LIKE TO DO,NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER EVERYTHING IS MONEY,MONEY:eek:

Re: Is it just me...?
 

expiration on the permit is 1/1/11, or until you hit your poundage. I think.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

It's a shakedown! It's total BS. I don't blame the P boat's that pay the $$ for it cause they are trying to make a living. If $$ can extend a fluke season why not give the average rec fisherman a chance ..let say a research stamp for $30 for 3 weeks?? What's fair for one should be fair for all...

To me the fluke season is over....time to move on...its as simple as that!

Now its time to zero in on albies...bonita...bass and bottom fish!

And thats what i am going to do!:cool:

Re: Is it just me...?
 

ORIGINAL POST BY CAPTAINTB

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this explanation. Aren't you guys related? Because those are far opposite views.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I am so bored with the conspiracy theories.

Yes, you are right folks this is just another tax:rolleyes::rolleyes:

First off ladies and gents, there is no magic permit you buy or spend 3000 dollars on. The permit has nothing to do with the RSA program and is a scientific exemption permit that is issued for any vessel, commercial, recreational or research that is harvesting fish for any purpose at any time outside of the normal regs. They existed before the RSA program and they will exist after the RSA program.

The permits are FREE.

Let me repeat this for all who STILL do not understand this program. The permits have NOTHING TO DO with the RSA program other than the state must issue it.....FOR FREE....so you can harvest the RSA quota or do ANY OTHER TYPE OF RESEACRH OR HARVEST FOR A MILLION DIFFERENT REASONS.

What is PAID FOR is the small percentage of quota that is set aside each year to fund research. No one was forced to buy it, no one ever bitched when only the commercial sector paid the money that funded the research and in return got to harvest those pounds and try to make back their money plus perhaps even a profit (god forbid)

No one bitched when the percentage of recreational quota was being harvested by only commercials. This specific program has been going on since 2002 folks, thanks for joining us.

Now that we can actually have recreational fishermen harvest the very same quota they donated to fund research projects, people are all up in arms.

Now, to my cousin Bobby.

Bob, remember that slot limit study we did on several different boats throughout the state including yours back in 2006? The one where you fished a bunch of trips at different regs?

Where do you think the money came from to fund the VERY FIRST RECREATIONAL RESEARCH PROJECT???

You guessed it, the RSA program.

Wanna know where the money came from to fund two of the most recent Fluke studies that are helping contribute to the work SSFFF is doing?

You guessed it, the RSA program.

But yes, it is a conspiracy.

If you folks want, show up at the damn MAFMC meeting that has happened every year for the past 9 years and tell them you would rather have the extra 2 days or so of fishing that quota would give you if added back into the total state quota. Tell them the MILLIONS of dollars of research that has been done over the past decade was not worth your two or three frigging days of fishing. We are talking no more than 3% of the total quota (that's rec and commercial combined)

As far as Fluke goes that would mean 3% is taken off the top. If you want it back, then recs get 40% of that 3%, of which NJ gets 39% of that 40%.

That's it ladies and gents. And, this is not some"test" by the gov't to see what they can charge for since
THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT GET ONE FRIGGIN' DIME OF THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

So those "bastards" that are charging you are the ****ing scientists!!!!!!! You know, the universities and research facilities that are doing the science we have all been screaming for. They get 100% of the funds raised from this program

Re: Is it just me...?
 

What I noticed, Tony, is that the people getting overly excited are the Fishermen who own boats and don't go on PB's. And the PB owners who didn't pay to participate in RSA. Those excluded are the ones most offended.

As a 50/50 charter/pb fishermen, and having double checked what you told us. I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to fish more, AND knowing that my money is going towards not only my favorite boats, but towards a better understanding of how we can manage our fisheries and still have our favorite hobbies. It's pretty cool in my opinion. And it's 3 weeks of one type of fish. Not that huge a deal I think.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

It's All About Money!

Re: Is it just me...?
 

.... If $$ can extend a fluke season why not give the average rec fisherman a chance ..let say a research stamp for $30 for 3 weeks??


This is what I am talking about. "It's a trap", as someone else put it.

Willing to put up $30 for 3 extra weeks? Wait till the bean counters get wind of that. Holy crap! a new way to shake down the public!

Tony, the govt isn't getting any $ now but once they see we are willing to pay to fish....! Again, I do not blame any who paid --but this isn't good. I've been going to fisheries meeting since the 80s. I remember the first time someone suggested a 17 inch fluke and the public went nuts --ready to tear the building down. But just 10 years later we stuck with an 18" fluke --and we are lucky compared to NY.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

It's all about money!

Re: Is it just me...?
 

First, with all due respect CaptTB (and I have an immense amount of respect for you), I believe many of your statements are sarcastic in that post at the top of page 2. However, it's difficult to figure out which ones are the sarcasm and which ones are the facts. It would be helpful to leave out the sarcasm. I'm not trying to be difficult or critical. I just find your post to be confusing...and I truly want to understand.

With that said, I find the whole program to be a slippery slope. If I understand correctly, there is some amount of poundage available to catch to help generate research dollars by some non-government agency. That non-government agency chose to incentivize people to "buy" that poundage by making it available during a period of time where they would not normally be allowed to keep fluke. In order for this to work, the government had to make the poundage available to the program and make available special permits to those same people who "bought" the poundage.

If I understand correctly, then I really do think that's a slippery slope. Albeit for what we all believe is the correct cause, THIS TIME. I wonder if the program didn't exist, would there be a larger poundage allocated to all? If not, then what happened is that the total available catch is reduced to allow for this program. That's a tax in my book, no matter how you feel about how those funds are used.

Then again, I find this all very confusing and may be completely wrong in what I just wrote. :confused:

Re: Is it just me...?
 

From what tony said it would equate to one extra day fishing maybe two? If the RSA didn't exist.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Not sure how you came to this conclusion. I, for one, spend mucho dollars on PB's and Charters, but do have my own Kayak.
There seems to be a connection between the program and the government, albeit a subtle one. I do believe this is just another tax. It's a tax that directly funds research that helps us. With that said, I believe it's our own responsibility to take care of our own... and that means supporting various agencies and organizations that do the research we need and fight for our cause. But I don't believe it should be a tax that doesn't allow all boats to compete equally. Sure they have equal rights to compete for the RSA quota, but they all can't have the quota. That means some fish and some don't. It all just seems very Machiavellian to me.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

i love the "goverment won't get a dime" thing.they get a cut on everything and
unless you are gonna follow that money yourself{and please don't show me on
paper because print don't mean sh*t.its just another tax.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

What sarcasm? Everything posted above is 100% factual, with the exception of the obviously sarcastic "you are right, it is just another tax" with the rolleyes next to it.

I am afraid you do not understand correctly, but you have a basic grasp on it.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Wrong. I love how you add the "don't show me on paper" so no matter what any says or shows you your fantasy conspiracy theory can remain intact.

If you automatically refuse to see or hear or read any evidence to the contrary then you can never be wrong and no one can ever burst your bubble.

The simple fact is that the law does not even allow them to receive any of the money. Unless the law is changed that cannot change. So, for at least the moment you are 100% incorrect.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Please Bob, you know the answer to that. You have been involved in this long enough to know that it is a specific amount of pounds that must be accounted for to the pound. Every vessel must call in, have certified scales, etc. etc. Once the pounds are caught it is done or when 1/1/11 comes it is done regardless of how many pounds were caught.

You know from past experience that when we have tried to do things differently with regulations enforcement is always a major stumbling block.

In this case, exactly how are they supposed to enforce potentially thousands of boats catching these pounds? You cannot do it like MRFSS does the recreational harvest, this is commercial and recreational pounds and must be calculated to the pound.

Yawn, another conspiracy theory that have been around for a decade and yet has NEVER come true. A) you do not have to buy it, B) it will simply be caught commercially as it has been for the past decade, C) the idea of catch shares was around long before the RSA program.

Nice try, but not even close.

Yeah Bob, I was there too remember? I was in Philly when they first instituted the 10 fish bluefish limit and have been going ever since.

If the gov't could get $$ they certainly would. Fortunately as a result of the efforts of many people over the years, they currently cannot. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. That means we keep our eyes open and stop the things from happening or change what happened.

It does not mean we stick our heads in the sand and do nothing so nothing else can happen.

If we are all so afraid of what "might" happen then sell your friggin boat and go hide in a closet somewhere. That way, you will never have to worry about someone trying to change the law so they can charge you and you won't have to fight to keep it from happening.

Tghe simple fact of the matter is this is NOT NEW. Do you think the gov't hasn't figured out over the past decade that if they could charge they would?

Do you think it just occurred to them this week?:rolleyes:

I notice you did not comment on the fact about the slot limit study done on your very boat (and which you received money for by the way) and the other studies that were bought and paid for with RSA $$.

See, if we leave the benefits and science out of it then it sounds scarier:eek:

Re: Is it just me...?
 

that is just the way i see it.this state is broke and they will do everything they can to get money.i do belive what people say or wright as long as its from the right people.i don't mean to offend,its just that our goverment lets to much ILLEGAL this go on and come in to this country.we have had poor eco
times and no one ever tried for a sw licence.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

As I said previously, it would add a couple days to our season, depending on when you added it. It is 3% of the TAL, taken off the top (sorry, but I have already explained this several times) before any allocation.

And, it is not 3%, it is NO MORE THAN 3%. It has been less. Any unused or unallocated amount goes back into the TAL, as has happened before also.

That is why I said if people do not want the research to be funded then go to the MAFMC meeting and tell them you want your lousy three more days of fishing and I'll stop wasting my time fighting for all this shit.

The simple fact of the matter is that the fishermen, not the government, worked with the MAFMC to come up with a way to fund science and research that would otherwise not get done. Since we only have fish to work with, we used fish (I say 'we', I did not create this program)

Someone made the intelligent post more than once that "it is all about money" or something to that effect.

Well duh! of course it is about money. What else do you think pays for the research? Collectively commercial and recreational fishermen got together and took a small portion of the allowable harvest each year and agreed to have it auctioned off. Those buying it would have the potential for a bonus (that is assuming they can get more money than they paid for it...ask PF how that worked one year for him) and all the money would fund research that no money existed for.

As proud as I am to have been involved with SSFFF and all we have accomplished, do you realize that the three years of painstaking work we all did and the HUGE investment in time and personal financial loss taken by all of us involved raised less money in three years than one fraction of one year of the RSA program raises?

And guess what, it all goes to the research regardless of what the paranoid might believe.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

The state? The state does not even have anything to do with this program!!

Have you even read anything that was posted?:rolleyes:

Re: Is it just me...?
 

as i said before,thats the way i see it.as for state or country,their both broke.
and you can't tell me that if we{state or country} didn't spend so much on
the wrong things that we would even be having this conversation.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Actually Tony what alot of fishermen dont realize is alot of RSA programs are "Goverment Funded" Yes free. It doesnt come easy you have to do a little digging , some Googling and some time invested if you want to start an organization to be funded for a new program .If someone has the initiative they could try to start a new Funded Program or Piggy back off of someone or research center who already has a Grant . I'm not gonna get into it here seeing that the voice of reason & logic has been taken over by those who are burnt over the current system and those who believe Hoffa is still buried under Giant stadium.


I know it must get tiring Tony .
See Ya Around Town

Jimmy

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I appreciate it Jim. I did not even bother going into any more detail because the naysayers will find some excuse not to believe it anyway!

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Tony , I'm glad that you are on our side . I'm just an old man on his way out and I don't claim to know a lot but we are on the same team here. I don't know any Bogans that haven't stepped up and fought for Boat Owners and Fishermens Rights . I can't blame Bob for being suspicious as I am too . Thank you for the insight but I'll stand with caution . Now since I'm the designated thread killer lets bury this one .

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I guess my ultimate gripe is that money has to move from me to someone else to prove that it's ok for me to fish. It just sucks, and if it's necessary, then I'd like to move that money myself by donating directly to programs like SSFFF and others.

Imagine if everything worked that way. For example, let's say the government decided that there was not enough oil, so they put a limit on how much oil we could consume. But then let's say we beileved there was enough oil. So an organization pops up to prove to the government that there's enough oil. But they need funding, so they offer bus and trucking companies the ability to purchase additional oil and then use the proceeds to fund their program.

I dunno, it all just seems crazy.

But I do get that it is how it is, and that not enough people will pony up funds to support themselves, and the bottom line is we need to fund data.... because without the data, we don't have a solid argument.

Thanks CaptTB for your hard work and input.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

There you go again Tony a real thread killer:D You present facts and people still do not get it. This is great asset for all fisherman. Rsa is not for PB/Charters to make a living its to fund research for OUR fisheries. Pay our own way. As you explained to many on the internet(and myself in person) this program is a big win for fisherman and has been working well for many years. As I understand it( and please correct me if I am wrong) about the only thing that has changed is that more states will issue free landing permits and that in-turn will now allow charter/party permit holders to bid on RSA quota in those states. Where is the giant conspiracy and all the fraud. It blows when peoples agendas gets in the way of the facts. If your life sucks and you hate the government awesome:) If you think the seasons are too short and size limits are too big wonderful:) All of that has nothing to do with RSA. Plenty of battles to fight for our fisheries but we need facts and science to win. How many saltwater fisherman are there in NJ? 400,000 or 1,000,000 who knows . If you look at how many registered this year you would say not too many.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Very simple:

The current data is against us right now in terms of fisheries data. We need better data, better data takes money. We need money to pay for this. Everyone won't write a check for $1000, we need RSA. That simple.


Data bad=need to fix=need better science=need more $=RSA helps.

We're only shooting ourselves in the foot here. You think the government only exists to conspire against you, go to another country and find a new government. If not, try to work with them to get the $ for reaserch that we so desperately need.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

So does someone actually show up after every trip to do the calculations and measurements or is it random ? If so is it up to the crew to do the work back at the dock? Hats off to whomever has to log all that info prior to fileting. Finally some sound numbers that are in our favor!

Re: Is it just me...?
 

No conspriacy theories here....I don't care who the $$ goes to...but I am sure the info collected by the researchers is going to the Gov.

I would never pay $30 or $3 to extend a fluke season... anyway you look at it.... it's info that that very well could effect our future as saltwater fisherman.

Another fluke season come to a end....I here the bottom fishing is good!

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I AGREE WITH YOU 110%....its a money thing.....

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Because clearly knowing how many pounds of fluke the average party boat brings in on a daily basis isn't going to somehow provide accurate data right? Not to mention any other research that may be useful. Like if they check the racks and find out that 90% of the fish at the size we are keeping are females and that we're doing more harm than good. So they make adjustments accordingly?

It's all about the money though, and our president is a muslim, Kennedy was killed by a magic bullet made of frozen meat fired from a grassy knoll, and we didn't ever really go to the moon...

Re: Is it just me...?
 

Couldn't this be been done on any day, on any boat, during the regular fluke season? All summer we fileted our fish at the dock, put the racks in a bag, tagged them, and put them in Petes freezer. I love fluke fishing and my season is over unless i want to pay to go on a party boat while my boat sits at the dock. I am all for the research 100% but its a tough pill to swallow watching the rsa boats going out fluking while iam in my slip waiting for the bass run.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

What is being confused here (and that is partly my fault since my posts are so friggin long winded I don't blame all of you for not reading every word:D)
is the "research" part of this.

Yes, data is being collected from the boats actually doing the trips.

However, that is NOT the research being paid for with the purchase of the quota. Any data collected from the RSA trips themselves is a BONUS and is ABOVE AND BEYOND the research that is paid for with the purchase of the quota by these boats and the commercial boats.

There is a whole list of research projects that are currently being funded either in part or in whole with the money generated from the sale of the RSA quota from each species. Some research gets funded with quota from several species (it is irrelevant what the fish is, it is the money generated from the sale of those fish that pays for the research)

These projects are submitted to the MAFMC in 2009. They are then approved for the 2010 fishing year (some projects span multiple years) and quota is assigned to them to then be sold and help pay for or offset the estimated costs of those projects.

Early in 2010 the quota is auctioned off, and the money is then given to the research projects based on how much quota was assigned to each project and subsequently how much that quota sold for per pound.

The fact that additional data like lengths and weights is collected when those fish are actually harvested is simply additional data that did not cost anything to collect.

Here is an example of a few projects that were funded in the past couple years: (project name in italics, recipient of funds in bold)

Discard Mortality in the Summer Flounder Fishery: A New Approach to Evaluation - National Fisheries Institute

Data collection and analysis in support of single and multispecies stock assessments in the Mid-Atlantic: Northeast Area Monitoring and Assessment Program Near Shore Trawl Program - Virginia Institute of Marine Science

2008 Fishery Independent Scup Survey of Hard Bottom Areas in Southern New England Waters - Charles Borden and Eric Rodegast

Evaluation of Summer Flounder Discard Mortality in the Bottom Trawl Fishery - Cornell Cooperative Ext. of Suffolk County

Development of a Supplemental Finfish Survey Targeting Mid-Atlantic Migratory Species - National Fisheries Institute

Re: Is it just me...?
 

I think there is a difference without distinction here...

The RSA money comes from the private sector and doesn't go to "the man" at all if I understand correctly. The people using the resource pay for the research, which at first glance does not seem controversial at all.
However, my parents used to pay $6k per year in property taxes and it was all inclusive for school supplies, athletics, extracurriculars, etc. not to mention garbage and other services.

Now, I pay $30K on an adjusted basis and get no garbage service, we have "fundraisers" for a public school in one of the highest income areas in the US to buy pencils and paper, and we don't get deer picked up when they're dead on the side of the road.

The RSA money may never touch Govt. hands, but haven't they abdicated one of their old responsibilities without a commensurate reduction in the taxes we pay? What would the regulation be based on if not science? My municipality doesn't get any of the money that I pay my garbage company, but I never got a refund when they stopped providing it either.

Another interesting situation is "whose science" is being funded? A very different story if rec and commercial fishermen are both paying for the same "impartial" science. Ditto the science that us fishermen want to show that stocks are healthy and are willing to pay for but not if if it's used to show that we should stop fishing.

I applaud all of you who are so well versed in this issue; for those of you whose living is at stake it would be irresponsible if you weren't as informed. Like many other areas of regulation, there is sometimes a calculated morass of jargon, legalese, and double talk intended to make most people throw up their hands. Thank you all for sifting through it and helping us understand.

Re: Is it just me...?
 

TB, you are a very patient man:)

thanks for your commitment