Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Absolutely agree with you Doug. But there is a difference between "cherry picking" fishing trips and settling for less. I am sure you agree it makes more sense to do two trips on a quality boat for $140 than 3 trips on a low cost $100 provider where you have to cross your fingers that the bait is fresh, the boat is anchored right, customer service, the captain is moving the vessel to the fish and fishing the right spots....etc etc.
BTW, thats the reason I barely do inshore partyboats anymore. Rather do one charter instead of two partyboat trips. That can be a week, a month or a year, doesnt matter.
There is a reason why "right" priced boats are priced the way they are....because there are no shortcuts, and thats the way we want it.
These boats dont have to worry about filling up quickly, as a matter of fact they are booked so far in advance I start wondering why they dont charge more.
The ones complaining and crying are the ones that overprice and under deliver. They have to cut prices till they fill up, and quite honestly, thats the pricecategory they belong in, considering demand(who goes on these boats) and supply(what they offer) or vice versa.
Easy as "the market", isn't it?

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

vin,

i did not read all five pages, i'm sorry i just can't do it. i have operated jenny lee sportfishing for the last 13 years and consider my operation to be first class. however, i am a part time charter operation, meaning although we are available everyday of the season, we all augmnet our income working fulltime in other industries/business'. aside from the head boats there are only a few operations in which the employees/owner's are solefully dependent on their charter business, and my hat goes off to all of them.
i have owned and operated dave's heavy towing for the past 38 years and at one time i was one of the top operations in the state and perhaps the east coast, but competition and low pricie have changed all of that, as it has done to the for hire fishing business.
you see somehow, a guy comes into business with little or no expierience in operating a business and figures out that his competitors are gouging the public and he can do it much cheaper. after all 38 years, what could i possibly know about running a business, just like the bogans or raagula, or larosa families, what do they know. after decades in business, you should have some knowlegde of what it costs to operate, make some money, and of course pay your help well enough so they stick around and oh yea, improve or upgrade your equipment/ boats/ tackle/ etc.

when we started chartering i promised my self that i would operate jenny lee as i do dave's heavy towing, with the utmost in professionalism, and saftey, and not cut price or quality just to say" i'm a charter business"
this is not a knock on anyone who is chartering or thinking about it, by no means, it is america, but you are 100% correct their are far too many start up so called charter boats that are crapping up the stream for the few really true charter operations, and i'm not sure if it's ego or dollars or both.

please exuse me for the rant, but it's the truth. i'm the last man to judge anyone, i am a part time charter operation, however, i feel i maintain the highest quality of respect for the industry and my peers.

repsectfully
capt dave bender

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I did not waste my time reading all the pages of responses but here is my 2 cents...when all things are equal, all prices can be equal. Not all boats are equal and either are captains or crew. I would gladly pay more to be on a boat that will get me to the grounds faster and has a crew that works hard. I was recently on a sponsor boat that was open for the day and the boat never went more than a couple miles from the marina, never burned any fuel or got the boat more that 8-10 knots and all we caught were short fluke and all the mate did was fish the entire time. Where as I fished the Mad Gaffer, and captain ray burns fuel, goes wherever necessary and will keep you out late, billy the mate busts his ass and as a result, I have since chartered his boat several times.bottow line, you are comparing apples and oranges... You are not going to pay the same price for Hyundai as you would a Lexus would you???

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I'm going to add another thought to this thread, I started around the same time as Dave Bender and respect his opinions and operation. I also run part time. As Vinny pointed out in the start of this thread, charter rates in this metropolitan area are lower than most other geographic areas. I fish out of Jupiter during the winter and the drift boats there get $75/head for a half day trip and run less than 5 miles. During the winter they are booked up solid and run two trips/day. Considering the distances we travel, charter rates here are a bargain. Our spring clamming trips up to Raritan Bay are 25 miles each way. When I talk to captains out of our area about our canyon trips with runs of 80 to 100 miles each way, they think we are nuts to charge as little as we do. The cost of fuel is what makes or breaks us in the charter industry.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Some can run on reputation

New comers to market need pricing until they establish their reputation

Companies offer lower prices to build market share all of the time

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

But ultimately the consumer wins out with choices. We can choose the port, boat, crew that we want to fish with and someone that is in our price range. That keeps anglers interested and helps the industry as a whole cause we keep fishing. That also keeps sites like this in business since they are a place for advertisers. Now from a personal business perspective its gotta be a brutal industry to be in...especially if its your full time gig but ultimately that was your choice in the beginning of it all.

I would compare it too moving next to an airport that been in operation for 100 years and then asking said airport to lower the noise level after you move in. You knew from the beginning the fishing industry is tough and you have to be ready to weather all the changes no matter where they come from. I would say this happens in many different industries...not just the fishing industry.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

i know these guys have to make money to stay alive, but over a hundred bucks for a head boat would get a lot less people out there. Also i think for someone who is fishing once a week over a hundred bucks is just too high for some people to pay....especially to catch two flounder, maybe a couple of keeper fluke, maybe a bass or two? What if you had to take your three sobs.....400 bucks for those fish. I dont agree with you on this, i feel the fares are to high as it is. Theres a couple of months i fish 5 times a week on an charter or pb and it costs me well over 1000 bucks a week. Ridiculus, but i pay it because i love the sport. I feel pb fishing is the only boat fishing we have left thats reasonable, even having three boats myself if you take your own boats odds are its gonna be at least 200. Just my opinion, the volume is how these guiys have to make money, or buy a smaller boat that could go farther or get where the pb cant and charge more.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Thank you dave, and i always forget that you own daves towing, i will keep you in mind next time i need a heavy up your way, i am also in the towing business, myself for 12 years and my father for 32! I appreciate your response and you are spot on, some times you have to sell yourself short to make ends meet at one time or another, but thats business sometimes.. You response is dead on and greatly appreciated!!

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

its a double ended sword, how about the boats that come out of port and are fishing within 1 mile of running?

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I wouldn't buy a hyundai. hahaha kidding.. Your right in that aspect, but what i am trying to say, if that if your trying to get into the business, trying to get started, starting at the same rates as most boats in the area will put you in their market and allow you to make more money doing so. Market research has shown and proving countless times throughout the ages, that if you take the same product, be it a 5 dollar apple corer, and charge 10 instead of five, more people will buy at 10 because they think it is a better product yet it is the same crap 5 dollar product.


People can go on a cheaper boat, might get just as good if not better quality of fishing and service, but why not optimize your potential to earn and profit then ride the tide and hope to build your business. I am a cheap guy, not extremely frugal but cheap, but i know what i am willing to spend. I do not fish near as much, not because i dont want to, but i dont have the time and yes i admit, it is hard to continue to pay the 125 plus a head plus tip more then a few times a month, or my wife would really take my man hood away, i can only hide so much money. hahah

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

boats in sailfish marina that go sailfishing and such in florida are getting upwards of 2500 per day to do that, then you have to pay extra for live bait, they go a few miles off the beach, sometimes 3 miles to the ledge and start fishing, we have boats up here getting 2500 for a day troll that is burning 400 gallons of fuel lol

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Save a few bucks, buy your own airline tickets and skip the timeshare hard sell.

Cross threading... both issues solved :D

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Hey Jon - I guess you are still alive

Any word on when I can get the stuff back? :mad:

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I wouldn't buy a hyundai. hahaha kidding.. Your right in that aspect, but what i am trying to say, if that if your trying to get into the business, trying to get started, starting at the same rates as most boats in the area will put you in their market and allow you to make more money doing so. Market research has shown and proving countless times throughout the ages, that if you take the same product, be it a 5 dollar apple corer, and charge 10 instead of five, more people will buy at 10 because they think it is a better product yet it is the same crap 5 dollar product.

I find the apple corer analogy a little insulting. As a consumer it doesn`t take long to realize who is doing a good job for you and who is not, regardless of price. As a pb operator or pc operator if you were getting gouged on the price that you pay for gas or bait you would be the 1st one to complain. So here you are openly looking to have an entire industry raise prices on a forum that a large number of your customers are derived from regardless of the service or knowledge of that particular captain. That is not very smart.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

That would be sort of true if i was a charter boat captain or has any affiliation with a boat or business in the fishing industry any longer. As for the insulting analogy, it might be insulting but it is true, you put an over priced tag on something and people jump for it..

You completely missing my point here any how.. This is not about price gouging, this is not about rip offs, this is not about raising prices, this is about people coming into this business half assed. People coming in with boats they used to use just to fish and have fun, now they are charter to off set costs and although they may not be taking many customers away from your well known and reputable fishing boats, they are selling themselves short.

Answer me one question, if you have a product that you know can generate you 100k a year at a specific price point, why would you settle for 50k a year and work harder to reach 50 percent potential?

Same goes with the charter industry, lets use whole numbers, you run a boat and you get 500 a day for an all day trip, most boats are getting 1000 per day and running more trips if not just as many as you at 500, lets say each boats costs are exactly the same, the charter boat selling himself short at 500 a day is working twice as hard to make up for the difference the boat charging 1000 a day is making, when the guy making 500 a day and working twice as hard, could charge 1000 a day and work half as hard.. Make sense? kinda like the old saying, working smarter not harder.. Hard work is needed to survive and be successful, but if you run ragged and run your business with no care as to your bottom line or what your time is worth, then you might as well go pee in the wind.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I've been thinking about this for a while and don't think there is any right or wrong answer here, just different ways of looking at things. Some businesses make their money by volume and others make money by higher margins.

Walmart can sell a handbag for $30 meanwhile my fiance' makes me spend $300 at a Coach store! They both probably cost around $10 to make and can hold the same amount of stuff (which is the whole purpose of a bag, isn't it?), but the difference is that most of the population can afford the Walmart bag and once you get into the Coach pricerange, you have narrowed down the market of potential buyers. At the end of the year, if Walmart sells 10x the amount of bags than Coach does because their market of potential buyers is 10x greater, don't they both make the same amount of $? The same applies in this business as well.

Some operations are geared towards the higher-end clientele who expect a large, fast, vessel with a mate ready to retie rigs and dehook your fish, a nice galley with breakfast served on the way out, top of the line reels on custom rods, an endless supply of sinkers and tackle, etc. For that, I can certainly agree that there should be a premium associated with that type of service.

On the other hand, there are some boats that have a clientele base of people that just want to fish as much as possible. For those people, they are willing to sacrifice some of those additional ammenities for a lower price point which allows them to fish 4-5xs per month instead of 2-3.

That is what originally attracted me to Capt. Tommy's boat, "Right Away II", and why I have been a weekly regular of his for the past 10 years and now have entered into business with him. I have my own equipment and tackle and bring my lunch (mostly Coors Light with an occasional sandwich if I remember to pack it). I enjoy tying my own rigs and releasing my own fish. I don't have a problem hauling an anchor if necessary or picking up a brush and wiping down the gunnels. To me, that is all part of the sport of fishing and the fact that I was able to fish more often because of that made it all worth it.

Just because Capt. Tommy's business model is a little different compared to some of the other boats (a large customer base of weekly regulars instead of less frequent fares) doesn't mean we catch less fish, aren't willing to travel farther to find the bite and aren't making money. In fact, a lot of the posts/responses we have received on this site reference him as arguably one of the best bottomfishermen in the area.

I understand not everyone has the same opinion as me and that is the beauty of this site. It allows each of us to speak openly about certain topics and get different perspectives from a wide range of people.

Tight Lines!

~Capt. Kevin

P.S. If anyone would prefer to pay $200 for an open boat spot, we will gladly oblige :D :D :D

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Fish Tank, agree 100%.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Agree with Fish Tank, been fishing with Tommy since 2000.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I'm bringing PBR this week, Kev. And free market = you can charge what you want and provide whatever service you want. If it affects others' business in an industry, well, it's supposed to. Like natural selection, those that adapt will thrive and those that don't will die off. On the demand side, customers are free to choose whatever price/service they want. I've been with Tommy for three years, following him from 3 boats. Every time I've been on another charter, it reminds me why I fish with Tommy around 35 times a year. As Capt. Kevin said, other charters provide free lead, a mate to tie your rigs and unsnag you, and whatever else. But I don't want those things, and when I go on those charters I tell the mate so. I still pay my full fare, and tip, but I didn't get the service I paid for by my own choice. That being said, I choose to fish with Tommy predominantly, because he is not charging for those things. I supply my own lead, tackle, gulp, etc. and I am my own mate. And that allows for a lower fare. Mind you, I'm not cheap, I just enjoy doing those things for myself. Which brings me back to my original point of it's my choice in a free market.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

When I first began hiring charter capts I did go with some of the lower priced charters. The boats were smaller, they did not use a mate, and were relatively speaking kinda new to the charter business. Today some of them are among the high priced charters. They were able to attract new fishermen to the charter concept with their lower prices and build up a clientele that was loyal and over the years their clients saw that it was worth the extra $$ to stick with their charter captains. If I would not have found that Capt. in Key Largo who would take two of us offshore all day for $550. in 1999, or the Capt. in Sw Fla. that would run open boats to fish offshore for $150. per man. I would never have even gone on a charter boat!! I would still be fishing with the partyboats, I would never have known what I was missing. The same goes for the partyboats. I personally, am loyal to a particular sponsor boat out of Pt Pleasant Beach, they have ALWAYS exceeded or met my expectations. Friends always ask me to try other boats, I just can't see why?? I know what I am getting with my first choice, and don't mind paying more for what I see as a great value and a positive experience. Let's go fishing!!!

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

With your logic it is non sense for party boats to charge 60 dollars. You create more business and return customers by offering a good experience at a fair price. I'll be damned if im gonna pay 125 to go fluking when the guy on the party boat fifty yards away paid sixty bucks.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Ok fellas I've heard and read enough.... Time to through my hat into the ring... I've got a twin engine boston whaler cc with tipical electronics and I've had it inshore for stripers and fluke and offshore for tuna... got all my paperwork and insurance....I guess $100. a head for a full day more for offshore and will take it from there.... Now don't all jump in at once and lets go fishn'...


Capt. Pat

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

The economy is not that great so that plays a role too. Another factor is maybe some of the boat owners have less expenses.. Or maybe they have the finances to just do it for fun and not need to money to live.. The price has to cover your expenses.. so if a boat can charge cheaper and still pay the bills and make a little money then more power to them.. Like if a boat can charge less but fill the boat and fish say everyday they will make money because the lower price will add up due to the amount of trips the boat makes..

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Let's call a duck a duck and a horse a horse. This thread is about price gouging in the charter boat industry. It's about nothing more.

Think about it this way. You're driving down route 35, and you get to gas station A and see he's charging $2.75/gallon, wow! The guy in gas station B a half mile away is charging $3.75/gallon, you're not gonna go there because you wanna save a few bucks. You fill up with gas station A, as does 20 other people, and a week later, you're broken down b/c you got bad fuel and now you gotta pay for any repairs that need to be done.

The bottom line, Capt Kris said a few pages back, is YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Yes, for some of us, there are more expenses in terms of fuel and bait, and prices are adjusted accordingly. Some of us don't have the luxury of pulling out of our slip and drifting in the channel a mile away and catching some fish while most of the day your engine is idling and not burning fuel.

Typically, for me (and most other "shore area" guys to get my guys into fish on any given day, I'm covering a minimum of 10 miles, if not more, from dock to dock. I, like everyone else, try to keep my fares fair and reasonable - my engines and boat are good on fuel, we buy bait in bulk, etc.

With that said, I still have to make $$ on my trips. Yes, this is "part time" for me except for the summer when we do this full time and there is no $$ coming in; my business is paying bills - I have a family to feed, I have mortgage(s), other bills, etc. I, like most other guys have good intentions while running this business - it's the guys that have different intentions, or no intentions at all except to be some kind of a folk hero that takes guys fishing to cover the costs of his boat, that this thread is directed at. (Correct me if I'm wrong Vin!)

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

It's all clear now.


The party boats blame the charters for now having open boats which they didn't years ago. They are the best because they are on the water more then anyone.

The full time captain blames the part timers for coming into the business. They are the best because they are on the water almost as much as the party boat and have more range and smaller pieces they fish.

The part timers blame other part timers that don't offer as great a product as them. They are as good as the full time guy and they go the extra mile to put meat in the box.

The casual part timer considers himself as a good as any and just does it for the love of fishing.

The government blames it on overfishing, with the guys above clearly all taking way too many of this resource.

The conservatives blame the economy. No one is making money so prices need to be cheaper.



And the people who fish, last of all, don't care where the blame is. All of them just want a fair service at a reasonable price and find the option that fits them nicely.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

i must admit you are 100% correct. when the economy is struggling and prices are down/competitive the winner is the public. however, in all business generally speaking when you cut cost something is usually sacrificed. there most certainly are charter operations that really don't care or need to profit, but at the sake of integrity for the full time ones that do, i personally feel that running well under the industry is not a good practice. once again, i do realize that john q public is the benefactor of this practice.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Well-said. As I said on page 2, finger-pointing at each other isn't helping anyone. The fishing industry has enough stacked against it, and there are plenty of external issues to deal with.

And yes, you do get what you pay for. Paying less to go on a small boat with a captain who won't do too much to help you will work for some people (I don't mind this, as I often prefer to rig, cut bait, filet fish, etc. by myself), and won't for others. You pay a premium for premium service. I don't think people booking charters are oblivious to this fact! John Q. Public who fishes once or twice a year is going to go for the premium service because he can't do that stuff himself. Capt. Cheapo is likely going to take out customers who know what they're doign and just want a boat to fish on. In that way, everyone still gets what they want. I don't see how this hurts the industry more than ridiculous regulations and closed seasons.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

So if a part time guy gets in the business to just cover expenses because he loves to fish is somehow a villen?Not everyone needs to make a ton of money and do it to be out on the water.Some guy do it to supplement there income and some guys do it for sole income.That's what makes this country great.The American Dream.A seat for every ass.The cheap Ass the frugal Ass the rich Ass and the dumb Ass.People will garvatate to what their pockets can afford.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Because of the way things are (economy, Sandy, fishing regs) Captains and Fishermen are being forced to make decisions that they previously didn't have to make. I only have so much disposable income so raising the price means I fish less, BUT I would rather fish less and have a higher quality trip than save a few bucks and deal with low quality bait and fishing areas based on fuel consumption rather than were the fish are. IMHO, the Walmart mentality is infanitly more distructive. You do get what you pay for.

John Ruskin said “There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey.”

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

There are just far too many variables here to give the right answer. There are boats with many amenities heat / ac, bigger faster engines, larger cockpits, shaded area, etc. etc. In the end though it is about catching fish. The better captains always manage to find them, even in the worst conditions. That is not to say they haven't ever returned to port with the donut. A one price minimum fits all just doesn't make sense. I have fished on boats with all the creature comforts, and the captain and crew did everything but wipe my arse. And, other boats where the fuel burned was at a minimum and the mate was more occupied with his I-phone rather than the fares. I prefer to do most of the heavy lifting myself, baiting, tying rigs, hook removal etc. But, not everyone does. There are many boats that I plunk down the higher end fare to, because they are worth it. And, others that I'd never sail with again. If I can experiment and find out firsthand who does it just as good for cheaper, lucky me. But, I have been burned as well. Cheaper can be just as good, sometimes even better. The guys who think (and I emphasize think) they are good at it, but aren't, won't be around very long at any price.

If there are guys doing this and losing money due to cheap fares, and no other reason, I say, shame on them. That just doesn't make sense.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Some good dialog here.... I would have bet big money this post was going to get ugly quick. Nice to see everyone is being level headed and civil. Hope I just didn't jinx myself :rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned water always seeks it's own level. That is to say in a free market ecomomy things take care of themselves. Boat owners and their patrons make their own choices and sooner or later there is a bottom and top established and most settle somewhere in the middle.

The guys at the top enjoy and likley deserve a premium, if not they won't have customers.... Guys at the bottom are looking for volume or maybe to establish themselves but if they don't charge enough, sooner or later it's a going out of business proposition.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I go based on experiance not so much the price. I am just lucky people let me on there boat

Go with whatever you can afford and what you are comfortable with.

There will always be a price war in any business

I like both party and charter boats and have personal favorites for all different reasons

GDubs-:cool:

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Compared to out of state NJ is way less $$$ to charter!

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

As much as I love fishing, that is why I can't see myself traveling out of state. By the time you calculate expenses you could take yourself and you spouse on a vacation to the Caribeaan. Just saying... :D

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I chalk it up to different strokes for different folks. I like to go fishing based on experience of the boat but some of my friends want a nicer boat with good beer and only have to reel a fish in once then go back to drinking. Some of my other friends never came fishing before and want to go on a boat that caters to fishing noobs. I also know someone down in Florida who just got his 6 pack and intentionally charges less than he can make a profit off of just so he can get experience(he obviously lets the clients know this when they book).

My point is that I think variety is not a bad thing when it allows diverse groups of people with different agendas and financial limits to find something more custom tailored to what they are looking for.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

I like Gerry's post he spot on. That being said I always believed that you get what you pay for and after all these years I find my self being wrong. I am in my own business and mostly out of work due to the economy . But my prices are low, the workmanship good and my saying now is "some money is better than no money" So I believe if a Capt'n runs an open boat or needs to fill some spots they should cut the fare to draw in customers and more than likely repeat customers. I enjoy charters but also head boat. JMO.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

Great thread Vinnie. I feel that at the end of the day the consumer has many options. Due to a variety reasons they choose what charter/party boat option is best for them. Andreas Toy has been around for 12 years averaging 100 charters per year with repeat customers. As far as Andreas Toy is concerned we are not the lowest fare on the block for charters and do not offer open boat inshore trips. However, we make it up on longer days, mixed bag variety and commitment to our customers. I do truly believe that the end of the day the cream always rises. Those captains that choose to offer lower a lower fare have their reasons, and yes could be considered price gouging because they do not know better, but it will be a tough situation over time for them having to deal with challenges detailed below. I Wish them luck moving forward.

1.Kick ass Capts with a long history that usually find fish.
2.Fast or comfortable boats depending on your desires.
3.Network of reputable Capts that are always on the bite.
4.Rising Insurance fees,slips costs,boat maintenance, and high-end equipment
5.Regulation fish retainment limits that make no sense.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

since my name was brought up concerning this ridiculous controversy over pricing, i feel i have to speak my mind. first, i want to make it perfectly clear i wish only the best for my comrades who are involved in the charter and party boat industry. nobody, i repeat ,nobody is going to dictate how i run my business. my prices are set for one purpose, to take care of my patrons most of whom have been with me for over twenty years. these folks are hard-core fishermen and need to fish every week. they are mostly blue collar workers and i am not going to price them out of their passion for what we love to do. when you get on any boat that i run you can expect a clean and well equipped craft and great service. regardless of price you can bet you will receive 110 percent from my crew and me. yes, you will be rigged up, fish cleaned and anything that contributes to a great day on the water. most of all, more often than not, i will put you on the meat! any doubts, give me a shot. sincerely, capt. tom joseph

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

With all due respect, price gouging has nothing to do with being the lowest price in the market. An example of price gouging would be charging $15 a gallon for gas after Sandy.


Others that mentioned competiting businesses sitting down and setting prices would be an example of collusion.


It is a tough life with long hours. You choose to be a captain for a living you have to deal with intense competition, changing regs, weather, no benefits etc, etc. One of the best captains I know is in his 30's and still lives with his parents. Sad, but true. I do not think another few hundred a day will solve the problem.

Re: The charter/party industry...
 

O'connor, should be in a Northeast Charter-Party boat Captains-Business owners shoes and you would understand. Price-gouging maybe the wrong term used, pardon my use of words. I'm all for competition, but there are unfortunately some guys that are out as a hobby, but customers will figure that out in time.