Re: Fishery Management
 

There was quite a stir when limits were imposed on blue lines. Still don't get your disdain against summer flounder which happens to be one of if not the most important fisheries both socially and economically for the Mid-Atlantic States. I don't recall anyone saying the sun rises and sets on summer flounder but if your opinion is it's not a vital resource I couldn't disagree with you more.

Think you're going to have to keep waiting because truthfully I don't even understand the basis of your analogy. One fishery has nothing to do with the other and couldn't be more polar opposite.

Re: Fishery Management
 

My posts revolve around a distinct relationship illustrating a decrease in recruitment levels in the absolute and relative to SSB which coincides with the precise timing of increases in size limits for recreational anglers and responsible for consequential changes in the composition of commercial and recreational harvest with larger sexually mature fish albeit for different reasons. Recreational due to size limit mandates, commercial based on a conscious effort to harvest larger fish having greater market values. ALL FACTS. whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. All that in addition to an extreme disparity in access to the resource between commercial and recreational interests due to the same recreational size limit increases while commercial size limits remained status quo.

My goal is to bring those issues to the surface with fisheries management which are the underlying reasons in my opinion causing the fishery to fail unless of course your definition of a successful fishery involves a declining biomass even with catch levels being cut by two-thirds over the last three decades. The data supports my positions and conclusions 100% in spite of your inability to comprehend that. Your cross to bear, not mine. Regardless of where the biomass is located and why, if you read the attached two charts as signs of a healthy fishery which outline those catch level reductions, SSB continuing it's 17-yr downward trend and recruitment continuing to fail over a significantly more prolonged 35-yr period then there's really no need for continued discussions. Can't have an intellectual fact-based discussion with someone who lacks the capacity to interpret data. Your obsession with science doing no wrong in light of material discrepancies and inconsistencies in their own data and your position on climate change have skewed your perspective of reality. Just keep enjoying the banner fluke season we're currently having, keep subsidizing the commercial harvest with discards while commercials enjoy their 40% quota increase and laugh all the way to the bank at our expense.

Re: Fishery Management
 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but, is this pissing contest over yet?:rolleyes:

Re: Fishery Management
 

This is why we are where we are and will continue to stay there

Re: Fishery Management
 

Will focus my efforts on addressing observations and concerns with the various federal fishery management agencies who hold the fate of many including our children's rights to these fisheries in their hands along with industry and state organizations that have a vested interest in these outcomes. Sharing information on this site, at least of a regulatory nature, with those who'd prefer to sit on the side lines and bitch as opposed to becoming educated is a pointless exercise so consider the pissing match over.

Re: Fishery Management
 

Not even close, Bud !

Re: Fishery Management
 

https://www.njfishing.com/forums/att...1&d=1563541310
In response to Reason 162's conclusion that fish populations are moving north because of climate change, global warming, greenhouse gasses, carbon dioxide dome, ozone level or whatever today's, current politically correct terminology is, please look at the chart. If summer flounder numbers are leaving their southern grounds because of any of the above reasons, it would stand to reason that their landings would also increase in the northern range of the Mid Atlantic states like NJ or R.I.

Check the chart. I don't see much, if any, noticeable changes other than the decreased landings in a state like N.C. If the fluke are leaving N.C. because of temperature changes, they should show up in larger numbers where the water is cooler. That would be a logical conclusion. The landing numbers in N.J. don't seem to indicate any increase. I guess because our ocean waters are too warm as well. Then, they should be showing up in larger numbers in places like Massachusetts and Maine where the waters are cooler. They aren't there either.

I've fished locally over the past few years in places like Barnegate Bay, and the
Manasquan, Shark, Shrewsbury, and Navesink Rivers where fluke are still being caught despite the warm shallow water. Given the climate change, warming waters theory, those fluke should never have been there or should certainly have left by the end of May. They seem to have taken a liking to the warm, bait-choked waters where they can fatten up before migrating offshore to spawn.

I'm having a real problem with accepting the climate change theory in general and more toward how it is supposedly affecting the summer flounder numbers or their migration.

Finally, check the recreational numbers of fluke that have been landed since the over-regulations were implemented in the early'80's. As the size limits increased, the "landings" have decreased. Does it mean there are fewer fluke? I don't think so. If you can't keep a fluke, it doesn't get included in the landing totals. As the size limits kept increasing, the landing numbers have kept decreasing. Is there a correlation? I say, Yes! So, it appears there are fewer fluke when actually it can be concluded that by raising the size limits, fewer legal fish are being caught or reported.

If the size limit was raised to 20" would there be fewer fluke, or fewer fluke harvested and reported?

Finally.......If the agencies that are in charge of regulating the fisheries programs are government agencies, and, if the government works for us, why won't they concede that the public, recreational fishermen want things to change? Someone mentioned a pissing contest. Well, it is. Only, it's between the recreational anglers and the government agencies. Right now, the government hasn't made any concessions and that's just not right.

Re: Fishery Management
 

What have you done to help preserve our sport?

Re: Fishery Management
 

You might ask the tackle companies this same question , To my knowledge there is my one that continually steps up and has been on the forefront of fisheries issues for decades ! AFTCO !
Years back they helped save our fluke fishery by selling T Shirts and donating all profits to RFA !
Why the hell we support any of these guys like the majors is on you ! They don’t give a dam when it comes to local fisheries and business support on the east coast !
Many aren’t American owned companies and we are forced to purchase there products because so dam few American companies can compete with sweatshop manufacturing !
Not only is our fisheries system broken but so is our manufacturing system ! We give our dollars the the wrong people !

Re: Fishery Management
 

Here is a brief and most likely feeble attempt to try and rein in a thread like this.
Back in 2008 - 2010 Gerry agreed at my and others beckoning to start a Fisheries "Regulations / Management" Thread which to date is still located however "locked" for posting at the bottom of the main page. To me its is still a wealth of information and I suggest anyone who posted here to take some time reliving the past. Our "forefathers" have left posting but are still very involved in regulations. Some of our best on this site have also passed on in this life like LAB and other chose to continue the fight behind the scenes due to the bickering but honoring their legacy is still to date very important.

Enter Tom Dakota: We talk daily about the process through emails . phone calls, travel to meetings and some time fishing. We do not always agree on everything but its been nothing short of a very productive effort to date.

What is most important to recognize is this (Toms analysis) effort is difficult within the process but NOT reliant on politicians (yet), climate change and or science peer review. All of the data Tom is talking about has been peer reviewed and presented to the government and us as the data that dictates our regulations. Its NOAA's Data pure and simple looked at and trended in a different perspective based on that same data.

What is happening:
Tom's Data (Again based on NOAA Data) has been presented and is being reviewed by the SSC (Science Statistical Committee, the technical committee, NOAA , ASA (American Sportsman Association) RFA etc and I believe it will be in the ASMFC Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Council meeting materials for upcoming meetings in Sept / Oct. No EASY task.

We will attend and defend this data until they prove him wrong. May work maybe not but my god quite an effort.

Leave all the other stuff to another thread as none of is relative. This is based on NOAA data submitted and peer reviewed that is the result of our regulations. Sorry Recreational MRIP , SAW assessments, trawls, catch and mortality assessments are NOT Science, While i personally agree that Climate change should be considered and stocks of Fluke are migrating northward I believe to the tune of 20 miles per decade its NOT yet factored in to our current regulations.
So lets leave TOM , myself and many many others to do the work most wont and see what happens. A slot fish maybe in our future with enough support and less BS,

Re: Fishery Management
 

A slot @15-18 would be perfect. That's what I wrote in to the comments section of the striper survey sent out earlier in the season. Thanks for all your efforts.

Re: Fishery Management
 

How many time do you load your boat with trash picked from the water? I do it every time! 10-20lbs

Re: Fishery Management
 

We all need to educate our children on how to follow rules/laws and not hand them everything they want and teach them to fight for their rights. Respect is earned, not given. The only one bitching you!

Re: Fishery Management
 

At that size they'd need to increase the bag limit to 10 to have a meal.

Re: Fishery Management
 

LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:

Re: Fishery Management
 

I don't buy the whole climate change, migration stuff one bit. Like it was said, then we would be sitting on the bio-mass from North Carolina.

Re: Fishery Management
 

[QUOTE=dales529;534640]LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:[/Q
"To my thinking"? Really? Like i'm beneath you. Where I went wrong is when I tried to converse with someone like you who I thought would be the person to inform us on what's happening . Don't think the fighting you do for the fishery goes un-noticed, but get over yourself. Don't worry, I will no longer post any comments or anything else including fishing reports especially now that I know "my thinking" isn't acceptable. Good luck. Gerry, please feel free to remove me from posting if deemed necessary.

Re: Fishery Management
 

great just great,we are now fighting each other.as i have said and will always say"thank you to all who are doing what they can" to help this fishery.we have facts,graphs and all that goes with it but we still have no answers or change.if i may use a little common sense{and i don't have much} why are they making us take bigger fish when most of the bigger fish are females????last i checked these
fish need male and female to make little fluke.i for one am done with jersey fluking and spend my time fishing in new england and spending my money there as well.i have waited long enough to know that our elected officials don't care enough about us or what we try to do,it is a shame.how come other states don't have these problems????

Re: Fishery Management
 

[QUOTE=OH HENRY II;534647][QUOTE=dales529;534640]LOL please re read your words and get back to us on where you went wrong! Its pretty plain to see. I suspect you are picking on a person that subscribes to your thinking on fighting for rights but then say they are "bitching". :confused:[/Q
"To my thinking"? Really? Like i'm beneath you. Where I went wrong is when I tried to converse with someone like you who I thought would be the person to inform us on what's happening . Don't think the fighting you do for the fishery goes un-noticed, but get over yourself. Don't worry, I will no longer post any comments or anything else including fishing reports especially now that I know "my thinking" isn't acceptable. Good luck. Gerry, please feel free to remove me from posting if deemed necessary.[/ Your post does not make sense.So he disagrees with you and you get all huffy. Grow up.

Re: Fishery Management
 

[QUOTE=OH HENRY II;534647]OH HENRY
My post was regarding your comment that Dakota is the ONE "Bitching". That man has spent countless hours generating documents, charts, analysis etc to help get us out of this poor federal management so just thought you may want to re think that statement. IF i misunderstood your post my apologies. I would never think you or anyone else that posts on here is beneath me as I dont know you or many others and the ones i do know have become life long friends.Also you never tried to converse with ME you just made a post on Dakotas comments which I felt the need to address. I dont need to get over myself as i dont think I do that much but have taken the time to be involved for many years and hope it helps. Believe me there are many that do more. Hope that ends any personal issues and by all means keep posting. The fight is not among us

Re: Fishery Management
 

Andy.
I am not sure yet on Fluke but NOAA is definitely saying Black Sea Bass biomass has migrated from NC and NJ IS fishing on the southern biomass to the point that NC Boats are steaming 10 hours each way to fill their NC Quota. There is also legislation being presented to let them unload here in NJ and have their catch counted on NC quota. My guess is the same will happen with fluke shortly, It doesnt matter anymore who subscribes to Climate change or not fish stocks in large numbers have changed their patterns in a northward trend and that is just a fact.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/feeli...-cooler-waters

Re: Fishery Management
 

Dave the only thing beneath you is me and the bait bucket - :confused:???

Hey Everyone E.L.E - Everybody Love\Like Everybody - Jackie Moon Semi Pro

and in the immortal words of Rodney King - "Cant we all just get along" - google it Millennial's

BTW, Dave and Tom are some of the nicest hard working guys around fighting for our right to fish and do the work that most of us wont, cant or dont want to do , just saying

Now back to our regularly after school special - Showing my age here Remember John Travolta in the boy in the bubble ? Remember School House Rock?

GDubs-:cool:

Re: Fishery Management
 

GDubs you're a good man, I mean that sincerely. As Dave mentioned in his post the other day, the fight is not among us, the fight or challenge if you will is to preserve as many fisheries as possible for future generations to enjoy not just for recreational enjoyment but for the businesses inclusive of commercial operators who depend on them for their livelihoods. No one in my opinion should benefit at the expense of others which is another way of saying the focus should be on the fishery as a whole and secondarily how it's being allocated among it's constituents.

Oh Henry, I wasn't coming at you or trying to insult you in any way. I was simply trying to defuse the situation per your request and ended up creating another Chernobyl! If it came across that way, my apologies as well. What's happening with our fisheries is beyond frustrating and that frustration combined with the internet is at times an explosive combination. I've always believed in my life heated debate is a good thing as long as it's respectful. Sometimes those lines get blurred but that's always been my intentions here. Sometimes I've crossed the lines but try to learn from those mistakes and be a better person for it.

I can tell you I wouldn't be as engaged in the summer flounder fishery if it weren't for many including Gerry and Dave. Dave's been a great mentor and greater friend who has a wealth of knowledge with fisheries management and the process but more importantly a wealth of humility. There's a lot going on behind the scenes by many a lot of people don't see which can be discussed at a later time. We're fighting or trying to work with Washington here and the many Agencies, Councils, Sub-Committees involved, maybe one of life's greatest challenges so even though results haven't shown it yet I'd ask everyone to be patient and understanding. There are people who care and have the time or desire or resources or all of the above to get involved. Not everyone has that luxury and I get that. I believe progress is being made, ultimately time will tell. This is your typical marathon not sprint situation but I honestly believe we're starting to gain traction and getting the right people's attention. It might prove out I'm delusional but it might prove out I'm right. I'll take that chance.

Either way, I'd like to think we all have a vested interest and common thread that binds us together here as opposed to an array of issues breaking us apart. That's how I plan on looking at it regardless and will keep trying to cause substantive and positive change until I can't do it anymore. Too many good hard working people's livelihoods are at stake and I want my children and grandchildren to have the same enjoyment with this sport as I've had with my family and friends growing up.

Re: Fishery Management
 

My apologies to you and others as well, I should have handled all of this differently. I guess with all the issues within this fishery, commercial quotas, bag limits etc. gets me all wound up I let my emotions get the best of me and I ended up spouting off to the wrong people. It was uncalled for and again I am very sorry and hopefully there are no hard feelings.

Re: Fishery Management
 

No hard feelings whatsoever, like we've all said there's a lot of frustration swirling around. Makes us all a bit crazy and on edge. Thanks for all the garbage you collect on your trips, something that shouldn't be lost in all this. FYI, think we have a common friend. Kevin who is one of the vampire gang at Hopatcong during the herring spawn. Out of the blue he mentioned your screen name the other day, had nothing to do with this thread just a complete coincidence. He loves nighttime walleye and hybrid fishing for sure. Either way as Dave said, keep posting. It's what makes NJF a fantastic and unique site. All the best......Tom.

Re: Fishery Management
 

WOW guys I am impressed. So many times on the internet these days I read post of people who will argue just to argue and beat a dead horse to claim how right they are and how wrong the other person is.

The last few post above have been refreshing, thank you.

Re: Fishery Management
 

While everyone is entitled to their opinions. guys need to be able to look at things with an open mind.

Few examples are is their less fish or are fish migrating different ways etc.
Doesn't matter which it is, NMFS is saying their are less fish overall.
The regulations they are using are hurting the fishery for ALL of us.

guys bust my balls about the 2 marches on Washington not getting anything done, that they were a waste of time WELL if more guys who thought they were a waste of time ACTUALLY showed up there MAYBE those marches would have been more effective.

Everyday the in house bickering goes on between all the fishing groups its just another day towards our Government selling the fishing rights to groups willing to line their pockets.
and while many think that's the local based commercial guys its NOT,
they would prefer to sell those fish we all want to chase as Perks to other countries. Lining their pockets ten fold.

EVERY fishery except possibly sea bass and ling are being hurt by current regulations and unless groups get a little more backing its not going to change.

.

Re: Fishery Management
 

Group Hug :) :)

Glad people are so passionate about this subject but passion can be a double edge sword as we’ve just seen here. The more time and energy you have invested in this fight, the more personal it gets and that’s bound to trigger emotions.

Lets remember we’re all on the same team here and rather then get tangled up with the small differences we may have, remember we share a common goal and that’s to get this fishery and the management of it back on track.

As I see it there are 2 ways to fight the system that got us to where we are today, politically and scientifically. The more united we stand the better chance we have to affect changes in each area.

Re: Fishery Management
 

Marine Fisheries Council
Meets at the Galloway Twp. Branch of the Atlantic Co. Library, 306 East Jimmie Leeds Rd., Galloway, NJ 08205, at 5:00 p.m. unless noted otherwise. Please call 609-292-7794 to confirm date and time of meeting.
The Marine Fisheries Council meets bi-monthly, usually on the first or second Thursday of the month. The two sections of the NJ Shell Fisheries Council (Delaware Bay and Atlantic Coast) meet monthly. The DBSC usually meets on the first Tuesday of the month. The ACSC usually meets on the third Monday of the month. The public is welcome to attend these meetings.

https://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/mcnclmtg.htm#marine

Re: Fishery Management
 

Striped bass meetings should be coming up soon as well... Looks like all states are going to share in the pain since they are reported to be overfished.. A large part of this issue is to due to assumed mortality rates which is assumed to be 9%. That combined with the MRIP assumptions of how many are caught, even if you catch and release some of these fish will count against us.

Should be another interesting battle and I assume slot fish, closed seasons, lower bag limits will all likely be on the table and the reason the NJDEP sent the surveys which many of you got. Will be following this here as well.