The slow death of Party Boats

[Abrasion]

Do you guys think its a function of restrictive government policies or is it the "Captain In a Box" crowd offering charters for a bit more money than a party boat? Is it something else? Anything that can be done to reverse it? A healthy party boat population is essential to bring in new fishermen from all walks of life. I would guess the vast majority of you first caught a saltwater fish on a party boat.

My first fish was on the Barvic.

[travisboy]

my first saltwater fish caught on the SEA KING off STATEN ISLAND . :)

[Capt. Lou]

Without doubt , Belboy, Perth Amboy , cut my teeth on salt species ! PB's will survive if the fisheries do , when there's a lack of fish then no one will survive !
Look at GOM Cod season 1 month 1 fish ! That's tough & to survive u have to adapt or give it up ! Plenty of other fish up there but cod was money fish !
Maybe they can make doggies a sport fish , they did a great job regulating those!

[bowhunter]

The rise of open boat charters has to be taking its toll. I personally would be on head boats a lot more if I couldn't cruise the internet open boat forums and catch a ride on a charter at the last minute.

[BCinerie]

1977 bluefish on the Gambler ! On a bengal banana.

[lingding]

Whiting on the Teal out of Shoals Dock Staten island. I was a kid and helped the mate clean the boat. They let me on for $7.

[tombanjo]

Bingle banana. Bengal was the striped version. :)

Fluke on the Rainbow, 1960.

Not sure if Abrasion wanted to trip down memory lane with this thread.

[bulletbob]

I must disagree.. well, kinda.. I have not gone on any party boat with less than 20 guys in YEARS.. usually , its closer to 40 or more, even on lousy weather days during the week.. I see reports here once in a while from a captain stating, "we sailed with only 10 guys yesterday". but man I never see that... Personally, I think they will be fine as long as they get half a break on bag limits, size restrictions, and seasons.. thats a big question mark of course..

Also, we see Ling declining, mackerel too, Tog under immense pressure all year, and old "bread and butter species like bay/river winter flounder, whiting, weaks gone, or almost gone, so who really knows, maybe a few more captains will get disgusted and pack it in... On the other hand, we may see a nice resurgence of oh I dunno, lets say flounder and mackerel, and in a few years and the party boat caps will get some eased regulations, and get a longer season.. I hope so.. Anyway, if the regulations don't get any more restrictive, I think they will survive pretty well.. If more species disappear, and regulations get even tougher, and they have nothing to fish for, well, I guess they will have a real tough time.. We need fish for them to catch. No fish= no fishermen.. I hope thats NOT the case....... bob

[Abrasion]

Trips down memory lane welcomed!

My best day EVER was on the Sea Devil. It was the day before Thanksgiving. There were 6 of us. We all knew eachother. Bob needed a min and we all went into our pockets to make the min. 2 guys showed up right before sailing and explained to them that it would cost them an extra 20 above the normal fare to make the min and they told us to f-off.

It was literally a fish every drop for 8 hours. Just the 6 of us. There had to be hundreds upon hundreds of bluefish siting above hundreds and hundreds of stsipers sitting below them. The challenge was not catching fish, it was who could slip something through the bluefish and get a striper. Never had a better day. I know I had triple digit bluefish and at least 50 stripers. Never ever seen anything like it. To this day, even though I now have my own rig I still fish every day before thanksgiving with the same 6 guys

Hope Capt. Bob is enjoying retirement

[Duffman]

What are the numbers of rec fisherman today compared to say 20-30-40 years ago?

When I was a kid all we had was outdoor things to do. Sports, hunting and fishing. Today? If you can get there faces up from the phone screen it's a miracle.

My kid and his buddy fish with me all the time. There friends, not so much and have zero interest. Just wondering if the number of people out there is down.

[Sullivan]

I think it would be a number of things , mostly the lack of fish , Not trying to be pessimistic , but we all talk about it , Flounders , Mackeral , Whiting etc. Some fish are still good and of course I hope for good years ahead . There was an old saying "If all the codfish eggs hatched , you would be able to walk across the ocean on them" , before the factory ships depleted the cod there were 39 party boats in Sheepshead bay , and all ports had party boats . Young kids have so much to do these days that fishing is just not a priority . As I think about it , not only fishing , but we use to play stickball , I haven't seen that in years . Less people on party boats , but many more boat owners , and as said more open boat charters , things always change ! Lets all hope for good fishing .

[Tuna Tales]

December 26, 1984

Capt John DeRose

Spray III. Belmar, NJ

3:00 to 9:00 pm

About 90 whiting and ling for the 3 of us. Great trip...kerosine heater and all


Joe T.

[Scotty]

As I'm getting closer to retirement I hope there will still be party boats around in 10 years.

[Gerry Zagorski]

Fishing for hire is a tough business no matter how you cut it. Charter, Open, Party it doesn't matter.... You add up the hours, the expenses, the effort and the issues and there are many easier ways to make a buck.

No one gets into any of these businesses thinking their going to get rich and retire. It's a way of life, in some cases passed down from your family, in other cases it's a passion and you do it because you love it and hope to make ends meet.

I got my Captain's license several years ago when I had a break between jobs. I thought I might give it a whirl but after chartering a few times I discovered it wasn't for me. It's a ton or work, the business requires constant attention and truth be told, I couldn't see myself doing it every day.... Fishing for leisure is one thing, doing it every day to make a living is another and requires a commitment and comes along with a ton of pressure I was not prepared to take on.

Tip of the cap for all you do this, it ain't easy.

Having said all this, I'm thankful we have people who choose to do this otherwise many of us would have never got the fishing bug. My first trip was night Blue fishing on the Cock Robin and I was gut hooked deep. This great sport has given me many years of enjoyment since, along with great friendships and quality times with family and friends that are irreplaceable.

I too think that the youth in this sport are dwindling and it's a shame because they are going to miss out big time. There are however some that the sport still calls when they are exposed to it. I have a close friend who was not much into fishing and got into it later in life with his son Jake. This kid practically has gills and he's either fishing or his face is buried in fishing catalogs or watching You Tube fishing videos. He just started high school and actually formed a school sponsored fishing club. How great is that!!

I was also at the RFA both in the Somerset show and was amazed to see how many Moms and Dads are encouraging their kids to fish.... It was great to see their faces light up when you talk to them about fishing and the smile it brought to their parents faces.

I think there is still hope for this sport of ours if we simply take the time to share our passion with kids. Getting someone into fishing is one of the best things you can do for them. It's not for everyone but the few it calls will get a lifetime of enjoyment out of it.

Please take a kid and their friends fishing and support our local fishing businesses and this great sport of ours!!

[Detour66]

Yes many of the species we use to fish for are gone or we are not allowed to fish for them in any numbers. the winter flounder for example. I do think that Gulp/Bucktail jigging for Fluke has brought in a whole new younger crowd of fisherman. Now if we can only keep the regulations to a point where it's worth going fishing for there will be a steady crowd of new fisherman. Hence keeping the Party boats busy! But on the other hand there seems to be a mentality of driving the Party boats out of town since they are docked on prime waterfront property. We shall see but I hope the party boats continue to stay in business.

[tautog]

Closed seasons are a killer. They could do ok with the current low bags and high minimum sizes if you could keep fish all year. People show up for the shortened seasons and then are missing once limits lower or a species closes.

[Bass Specialist]

I think with the decrease in bag limits, the size of the fish required have to be bigger now, and the rising prices it takes to be in business are rally hurting the party boats. Especially for striped bass fishing. Maybe bottom fishing not so much. Almost every charter does open boat trips a few days a week for $100-$120 it's tough to hop on a party boat for $60. They can't get up and go that quickly or get up into shallower water. I've seen a big decrease in the party boat striped bass reports over the last couple years and an increase in the charter boats. Just my opinion.

[NoWorries]

Closed seasons are a killer. They could do ok with the current low bags and high minimum sizes if you could keep fish all year. People show up for the shortened seasons and then are missing once limits lower or a species closes.

I agree 100% Closed seasons restrict the fishing businesses big time . No real winter fishery on top of that . Between the weather and the regs makes it real tough. :(

[Chris G]

I think fish come and go in cycles. But regulations are straight forward punishment for any recreational vessel trying to make ends meet. We had 70 degree days in Feb with pretty much nothing to keep. That's not fair. The long range boats could put together a catch easily on species we can't keep. The bay could be LOADED with winter flounder right now but, who would know? Same for weakfish in the fall.

Regulations are the industries biggest demise imo. The writing is on the wall.

[Inishmore3]

I always like what Gerry has to say on issues like this. He is honest.

My take is, if this industry was a stock, your broker would tell you not to buy.

A percentage of the youth is not interested. Even in fresh water fishing. The river by me used to be absolutely packed on trout opening day. Not anymore. There are no bait shops around here anymore. Even Efinger's is gone.

Like folks have said, the Ling are gone. Mackerel are gone. The Cod fishery north of New Jersey. Look at the catch totals for the Long Beach Island Surf Fishing Tournament the last few Autumns. Not like it used to be.That catch list used to go on and on. Now it doesn't. Very few bluefish caught.

I agree with Chris G. The regulations hurt the industry. Only keeping female fluke is insane. The lack of fish hurt it as well. How many posts did you USED to see on how most of the boat caught 75 Ling a person? Many. Now we ask where are the Ling? Fifty Porgy per person. Winter Flounder used to be ten per person? Fluke was eight. Blackfish was ten in Delaware. All of this stuff adds up to the mess we have now.

The other problem is who takes over when the current caption and or owner gets up in age and nobody is there to take over. My first boat and fish caught was on the CA III in Barnegat Light, NJ. When Will and Gina feel they are too old to do this or just want to move on, there is nobody to take over like they did from their dad. Will's son has a career and so does Gina's daughter. The MBL out of Barnegat Light New Jersey is still around even after John Larson's passing. They were bluefish only. They now fish for fluke. The current captain isn't a son so if the family has had enough, that is it. The DM is now in Point Beach under a different name and the Ebel Family is done. I don't know about other areas of the NJ Shore. Who takes over if anyone?

Like the old Country song says "Whose going to fill their shoes"? Maybe the government, lack of rebuilding of some species and lack of interest will answer the question for them.

[Optimist]

In 1938 my Dad, Charlie Dodd, began running the first party boat in Shark River, the Optimist. I was born in 1945 and by 1950 I was standing on soda crates to reach over the rail. I remember going to the dock early and the boat was railed elbow to elbow and the guys saying "let's go fishing Cap". There was no internet so we went in some pretty crappy weather too. And catch fish we did. It was all Loran A, pulling out the charts and and old paper chart plotter. A lot of it was time and course running. I remember the Deal and Spring Lake pounds with a few guys tending to them. There was very little pressure on the fish stock. Cod fish on the Lucky Strike just a couple miles east of SR inlet. You could make 3 or 4 whiting trips a day on a good day.
Different times for sure. I have to think pressure is the biggest factor. So many boats pounding the fish. Hoping the business holds on and the fish can rebound.

[Harpoon]

Pops used to take me out on the Miss Belmar 2 and Big Marie S 2 my first few times and I still hit a few Point Pleasant party boats every year with my friends or daughter. My daughter and I will surely miss the Cock Robin this year. I don't believe there is a family friendly crew like that left in the NJ fleet.

Party boats are great but then again so are charters and open boats. I prefer Party boats in rough seas and cold weather, I prefer 6 pack open boats for meat trips, and 6 pack charters for family/friends/co-worker trips who would prefer a more comfortable boat.

I believe there are more options for the consumer today compared to 15+ years ago when it was just party and charter boats. I would ask what have the party boats done to stay relevant in changing fishing and economic times?

Now forget the regulations, government, fish stock stuff...I believe those are all excuses. Its up to parents to take their kids out fishing. Get them off the electronics, get them up early and teach them responsibility and life skills. If today's parents pass down what our parents passed down to us then we will help keep the industry alive.

[fishypete]

Early 80's on the Jet outta Sheepshead Bay. Dinner plate porgies abound. Contrary to the name the boat was not fast. Boy does time fly. I remember sheepshead bay was loaded with party boats. Now just a handful.

[shrimpman steve]

Is the cock robin going somewhere?

[Duffman]

Is the cock robin going somewhere?

CR sold. Capt Jim on the GE now

[Cuz]

First two boats I fished on was the original Yank out of PP in the middle fifties. And the first Skipper out of Neptune. We fished for giant porgies. It was a slaughter.
But the fishing bug really got me fishing all night for whiting and ling on Long Branch pier. My father took my mom, my brother, and me to the pier almost every week-end. We had food, drinks and Army cots to sleep on. He always set them up on the lee side of the big wooden lean to. My brother and I never made it half a night because we were very little kids. Between the cold and wind we were knocked out and sleeping by 1:00 am. When we awoke my Dad, and everyone else, had garbage cans full of big ling and whiting. The pier cost $1.25 and they gave you a free frozen mackerel for bait. Capt. Barry Gold once told me he was the man who supplied the pier with those mackerel. On the way home we would stop at either Roy's Smoke house or the other place in AH which was Leroys. My father would trade two fresh whiting for one smoked one. Usually it was 20 for 10. Today I still love smoked whiting. They now cost $9.99 a lb. Unreal. Three years ago they cost $2.99 a lb.
The pier was a kool place that holds a lot of fishing memories for me. I wish it was still there so thousand of kids also could enjoy it.

[capt74]

The Cock Robin is now the Captain Cal II

[shrimpman steve]

Wow. First I heard of the robin being gone. She will be missed. Good luck to her new owners!

[Capt Sal]

How many Charter boats can say they are full time? As far as the Party Boats always having 20 or 40 is ridiculous. If they don't sail some days when only a handfull of regulars show they would loose them. The ''Open boat" deal may be good for getting in a quick individual trip for the fisherman but makes it tough on the Captain and mate. How many Charter captains can promise a mate full time employment? There are a few but it is a tough way to earn a living.The party boats will survive because they are affordable and family orientated. The bag limits and closed seasons will scare away new Capts.

[Capt. Debbie]

Lets not forget timing. Boat fulls of regulars on Saturday and Sunday don't mean anything the other five days a week. Especially now. And more people fighting for the two day a week fare bonanza means many will fail over time.

As in the past. There is cheap and dirty. And there are people you go out of the way for to use.

Many think getting a OUPV is their ticket to riches. HARDLY! IT's a short season here in NE. Boat costs must be covered, repairs, and what's left is your salary. Did chartering out of Shark River for 3 seasons. It's not fun, and it's NOT LUCRATIVE.


How many Charter boats can say they are full time? As far as the Party Boats always having 20 or 40 is ridiculous. If they don't sail some days when only a handfull of regulars show they would loose them. The ''Open boat" deal may be good for getting in a quick individual trip for the fisherman but makes it tough on the Captain and mate. How many Charter captains can promise a mate full time employment? There are a few but it is a tough way to earn a living.The party boats will survive because they are affordable and family orientated. The bag limits and closed seasons will scare away new Capts.

[bulletbob]

Lets not forget timing. Boat fulls of regulars on Saturday and Sunday don't mean anything the other five days a week. Especially now. And more people fighting for the two day a week fare bonanza means many will fail over time.

As in the past. There is cheap and dirty. And there are people you go out of the way for to use.

Many think getting a OUPV is their ticket to riches. HARDLY! IT's a short season here in NE. Boat costs must be covered, repairs, and what's left is your salary. Did chartering out of Shark River for 3 seasons. It's not fun, and it's NOT LUCRATIVE.

With all due respect Capt, if its not fun, and not lucrative why does anyone bother?... Honestly, if the remaining capts are going broke, why not just pack it in?.. I personally don't buy the " the sea gets in your blood" shtick either..
thats fine for a while, but when the bills come due, you need to have money to pay them...

Society is full of people that went into a business they were in love with, but had to give up because they had to eat.. It happened to me.
If it was as poor a business as some say it is, why are we seeing some capts buying new boats, and new charter businesses coming on line each year?... I am NOT saying these guys are getting rich, by any means.. I am saying that most of them are eating and paying bills ok... if not they simply could not stay in business, despite the call of the sea... bob

[Super]

After expenses, I don't see any captains getting rich changing $60pp. On the other hand, I can’t afford to pay $60 every time I go fishing.

Anyway, Capt Cal II has a $85 striper 3:30-10pm trip limited to 20 people in May-June? Love that idea.

First trip: Gambler, 1980 night bluefishing. I put a 6/0 hook through the palm of my hand. Didn’t slow me down much.

[MrAC1980]

My first time experience was also night blue fishing in the late 80's on the Shamrock, Gambler, etc. One of my uncles made me a huge sign that said "Walk It Down" that hung over my bed for yearsssss. Sadly those boats are gone, most of the family I grew up fishing with are gone, the sign is gone, and I haven't gone night blue fishing in a few years! :(:(:(

[TerriMc223]

Is the cock robin going somewhere?

The Cock Robin is now the Capt Cal II.

[Capt Sal]

With all due respect Capt, if its not fun, and not lucrative why does anyone bother?... Honestly, if the remaining capts are going broke, why not just pack it in?.. I personally don't buy the " the sea gets in your blood" shtick either..
thats fine for a while, but when the bills come due, you need to have money to pay them...

Society is full of people that went into a business they were in love with, but had to give up because they had to eat.. It happened to me.
If it was as poor a business as some say it is, why are we seeing some capts buying new boats, and new charter businesses coming on line each year?... I am NOT saying these guys are getting rich, by any means.. I am saying that most of them are eating and paying bills ok... if not they simply could not stay in business, despite the call of the sea... bob
People buy boats and charter part time to pay off the boat.Total write off.There are full time charters but not many.Most have a full time job.Most of the new ones coming on line do it part time. you need a mate and he has to make money every week. It ain't easy.

[Capt. Debbie]

Speaking as someone who has actually done it, is you convert you love for the water and fishing into making a living.

As yes, MOST FAIL. A blown engine can and did result in lost work and a huge bill to repair.

You find fares on charters bring dimwits. Drunks that show up drunk and you have to worry about the moron falling overboard the whole time you're running offshore.

You have to pick dicey weather days that you would have preferred not to run.

You find lazy fisherman that do little making it look like you puny reports are captains fault. Dealing with people suck. And don't get me started on the money collections. When you want to fish, and have to bait hooks and tie on swivels it loses a lot.

Example: Ran repeat charter out to Chicken Canyon at 23:00. Set up and start chunking. At dawn I can see easily 40 feet down off transom and there's YFT all over the place. All four fisherman are sleeping. I bump one telling him we have tuna at the transom. He says cool and goes back to sleep. They are paying, if they want to sleep instead that's how it works.


The fun is taken out of it quickly. At least for me. And the money marginal. You cant afford to consistently lose money so it's not going broke. It's just getting by.

BTW Bullet do you love your real job?



With all due respect Capt, if its not fun, and not lucrative why does anyone bother?... Honestly, if the remaining capts are going broke, why not just pack it in?.. I personally don't buy the " the sea gets in your blood" shtick either..
thats fine for a while, but when the bills come due, you need to have money to pay them...

Society is full of people that went into a business they were in love with, but had to give up because they had to eat.. It happened to me.
If it was as poor a business as some say it is, why are we seeing some capts buying new boats, and new charter businesses coming on line each year?... I am NOT saying these guys are getting rich, by any means.. I am saying that most of them are eating and paying bills ok... if not they simply could not stay in business, despite the call of the sea... bob

[bulletbob]

Speaking as someone who has actually done it, is you convert you love for the water and fishing into making a living.

As yes, MOST FAIL. A blown engine can and did result in lost work and a huge bill to repair.

You find fares on charters bring dimwits. Drunks that show up drunk and you have to worry about the moron falling overboard the whole time you're running offshore.

You have to pick dicey weather days that you would have preferred not to run.

You find lazy fisherman that do little making it look like you puny reports are captains fault. Dealing with people suck. And don't get me started on the money collections. When you want to fish, and have to bait hooks and tie on swivels it loses a lot.

Example: Ran repeat charter out to Chicken Canyon at 23:00. Set up and start chunking. At dawn I can see easily 40 feet down off transom and there's YFT all over the place. All four fisherman are sleeping. I bump one telling him we have tuna at the transom. He says cool and goes back to sleep. They are paying, if they want to sleep instead that's how it works.


The fun is taken out of it quickly. At least for me. And the money marginal. You cant afford to consistently lose money so it's not going broke. It's just getting by.

BTW Bullet do you love your real job?

I am retired... i certainly meant no disrespect to anyone that runs a for hire boat for a living.. I merely stated the fact that if it was as bad as some are saying, it is a waste of time and why bother doing it?

Many of the NJ and NY party/charter operations are family businesses in their 3rd generation, and still at it.. If they are struggling and can't make payments and payroll, wouldn't it make more sense to do something else??.

I am NO expert, and maybe I'm wrong, but I bet most of the established PB captains lead a solid middle class life, and are doing ok.. NOT rich, but getting by ok, and doing what they enjoy.. Many of our friends here seem to think that party boat captains and crews are starving, and on the brink of foreclosure. Personally, I have my doubts. If that IS the case, then I am wrong and I suppose insensitive to their plight and would be first to apologize...
Like any business, some don't make it long term, but as stated, a LOT of these operations have been going strong for many decades, and as long as there are fish and fishermen will continue to operate, some years good, others not so, but that after all is like many other business concerns out there... bob

[Mako1]

Mackerel on the Teal out of Staten Island.

[Capt Sal]

I am retired... i certainly meant no disrespect to anyone that runs a for hire boat for a living.. I merely stated the fact that if it was as bad as some are saying, it is a waste of time and why bother doing it?

Many of the NJ and NY party/charter operations are family businesses in their 3rd generation, and still at it.. If they are struggling and can't make payments and payroll, wouldn't it make more sense to do something else??.

I am NO expert, and maybe I'm wrong, but I bet most of the established PB captains lead a solid middle class life, and are doing ok.. NOT rich, but getting by ok, and doing what they enjoy.. Many of our friends here seem to think that party boat captains and crews are starving, and on the brink of foreclosure. Personally, I have my doubts. If that IS the case, then I am wrong and I suppose insensitive to their plight and would be first to apologize...
Like any business, some don't make it long term, but as stated, a LOT of these operations have been going strong for many decades, and as long as there are fish and fishermen will continue to operate, some years good, others not so, but that after all is like many other business concerns out there... bob
Why would you get involved in something you no experience or clue about what it takes to do this for a living?

[bulletbob]

Why would you get involved in something you no experience or clue about what it takes to do this for a living?

Ok sal, have it your way.. ALL the captains are on the brink, about to lose everything, but stay with it because of the "call of the sea".... Oh brother..

I know nothing about what it takes to run a party boat, and NEVER anywhere in this post said i did.. However, entire families don't stay in a business generation after generation if their businesses were unsustainable..
before you make nasty comments, I will ask politely that you read more carefully..
I merely said that I would wager most boat operations with a steady clientele are doing well enough to maintain their families, their homes, their employees, and their boats.. If they are as bad off as you and some others are saying they are, they would not be handing their livelyhoods down to their children as so many do.. We all know its not an easy business, but the fact that so many stick with it indicates that for now, there are enough fish and enough customers willing to pay to catch them for most of them to make a living..

I know they aren't millionaires. Neither are their customers...
However, most are still there for the time being, and probably will be for a while.. At least until the regulations are so restrictive that salt water fishing in general is dead.... bob

[jerseyhunter]

However, entire families don't stay in a business generation after generation if their businesses were unsustainable..

I agree, and also besides the vessel being handed down , Including clientele. How they respect what they got and how they treat their business, mates and customers is up to them and determines if the business is successful. JMO.

[Capt Sal]

Ok sal, have it your way.. ALL the captains are on the brink, about to lose everything, but stay with it because of the "call of the sea".... Oh brother..

I know nothing about what it takes to run a party boat, and NEVER anywhere in this post said i did.. However, entire families don't stay in a business generation after generation if their businesses were unsustainable..
before you make nasty comments, I will ask politely that you read more carefully..
I merely said that I would wager most boat operations with a steady clientele are doing well enough to maintain their families, their homes, their employees, and their boats.. If they are as bad off as you and some others are saying they are, they would not be handing their livelyhoods down to their children as so many do.. We all know its not an easy business, but the fact that so many stick with it indicates that for now, there are enough fish and enough customers willing to pay to catch them for most of them to make a living..

I know they aren't millionaires. Neither are their customers...
However, most are still there for the time being, and probably will be for a while.. At least until the regulations are so restrictive that salt water fishing in general is dead.... bob
It is not nasty just the truth!

[bulletbob]

It is not nasty just the truth!

Sorry sal, but portraying these fine, hardworking boat owners/ captains/ mates as paupers on the brink of ruin is not the truth nor is it helping their image.. They do have a great love for the sea, I am fully aware of that, but bottom line IS bottom line, and if they could not "stay afloat" year to year balancing income against expenditure long term, they would be gone, into something else.

yes its a unique livelyhood. that calls only a few.. However its is also a business... Some won't make it, most do.. Just as with ANY business... bob