LandLocked Salmon

[slider]

Happened to get and E-mail today referencing the stocking of LL Salmon in Waywayanda and Lake Areflex this past November..I'ved chased those buggers from lake George to Schroon Lake to Lake Champlain, Those rascals are one tough fish to stock and get them to holdover..NJ claims to have been doing just that for about 6 or 7 years now..Question for the forum...has anyone been having any luck catching this fish?? Be iinterested in hearing from you..I have this sad feeling that the state is wasting its time and money trying to get this fishery started, but anyone that have caught this fish will attest, they are one sporty fish..Worthy opponents for any of us that chase trout in lakes and reservoirs..

[Wilson]

Happened to get and E-mail today referencing the stocking of LL Salmon in Waywayanda and Lake Areflex this past November..I'ved chased those buggers from lake George to Schroon Lake to Lake Champlain, Those rascals are one tough fish to stock and get them to holdover..NJ claims to have been doing just that for about 6 or 7 years now..Question for the forum...has anyone been having any luck catching this fish?? Be iinterested in hearing from you..I have this sad feeling that the state is wasting its time and money trying to get this fishery started, but anyone that have caught this fish will attest, they are one sporty fish..Worthy opponents for any of us that chase trout in lakes and reservoirs..
Reminds me of the Sea Run Brown Trout program:eek:

I caught a few in the Scrhoon River a few years back while Trout fishing
15'' size, a good 30 second fight and then to the net.
They are finicky fish to catch.

[The Birdman]

Yea they stocked last sunday I believe.

I got this little guy @ Waway last year on a spoon. haven't really targeted them but I want to try.

[FASTEDDIE29]

Got em in NY but never Wrestled with a NJ Landlocked. Talked with a few guys that have caught them in Aeroflex. There a ton of fun, but very hard to catch. LG population isn't doing well at all. It sure was a lot of fun in the late 80's when I was a kid. They pull like no other. Hope they do well here, would be nice to see another species in our lil state!!!

[gwl2oneida]

Had a charter on lake George 2 yes ago and the guide said what Eddie just said. Not doing well and don't know why. Same with there lake trout.

[Dave B.]

I haven't pursued them yet myself but I have a couple of friends who have fairly regular success with them in Aeroflex.

As for the money aspect it doesn't cost NJ anything. We recieve them from Mass. in exchange for excess walleye fingerlings we have from normal culling procedures at the Hackettestown hatchery. Our truck runs the walleye up and returns with the LLS fingerlings.

Many state's F&W agencies participate in such exchange programs. I've been told that the turkeys we have in S. Jersey were the result of an exchange program with Arkansas.
Apparently when F&W transplanted some of the birds from our northern flocks to the southern areas they didn't do very well due to having been evolved to the types of forage normally found in the hard rock mountainous regions.
Around the same time Arkansas was trying to establish turkey pops in their hard rock hill regions using birds from their indigenous flocks which had evolved in their sand hill regions. Seems they were having similar difficulties due to the habitat differences.
So, as the story goes, we did an exchange with them trading some of our mountain birds for their sandy lowland region birds and both pops literally took off.

Anyway my apologies for getting off track, the LLS really only cost F&W the small amount of wages for the little time it takes to stock them in the 2 waterbodies, and perhaps a short period spent in an isolation tank at Hackettestown to ensure there are no pathogens present even though the contributing hatchery is regularly certified pathogen-free. I'm not really sure on this last bit, they may go directly to the 2 lakes.

[slider]

Luv to see these salmon take hold too, but I understand this stocking program has been going on since 2006, But I can't seem to find out any good info as to how they're holding over..Actually does sound like the sea run stocking program, lots of fish stocked very little returned..Disappointing..Maybe better if they keep the walleye and stock them here instead, I understand they traded Northern pike this year for the salmon, Now that would be interesting if pike were planted there..Lake geo program on LL is very disappointing, they stock about 10,000 annually and very little returns..However Lakers doing real good up there last 5 or 6 years I've bee n going for them..Hope Salmon here take off make and interesting thread if that did along with the sea run browns..Would be a plus for NJ..Keep fingers crossed guys..

[bubbasdad]

saw the salmon waiting to be stocked at the Hackettstown forum today, looking pretty good!
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l10/bigrb9/Mobile%20Uploads/20131207_121701.jpg

[Lard Almighty]

I have to believe a lot of those salmon get eaten when they are first put in. The one in Birdman's photo would make a tasty morsel for a bass or big pickerel.

[UglyStick]

They are in there - caught a 17"er in Aeroflex about 2 years ago. They are much tougher to get than the trout and it is something of a hit and miss since they are stocked in small numbers and only every few years as opposed to the trout. Those fish we saw in the hatchery yesterday are about 15" so they should do pretty well... wish they had more of them to stock. When thinking about this program, remember that NJ gets these fish for free from MA so it really is kind of a bonus for us fishermen.

[slider]

Great pic of the salmon at hatchery, were nice size. I heard this years stocking size was averaging 14 inches which beats previous years planting of 5" to 8" size...Might see some results on holdovers after this years stocking..Most have been stocked however those left at hatchery which is about 200 are going into a small lake in Morris county.. Have no info bout it cept its called Tilcon Lake..Morris county guys can post some data if they have any good stuff..It is a bonus and would be great if they could become part on NJ's list of game fish..Can u imagine how target species would change if Sea Run Browns took and then followed up with a small but steady LL Salmon fishery..Wake me up, must be dreaming....Btw way the stocking of those 200 salmon won't take place till sometime in 2014...Would guess spring stocking would be good time..

[UglyStick]

The salmon stocked so far this year were done in 2 increments. The first when the fish were first acquired in May when they were smaller and the second was on November 21 when they were a little smaller than those now remaining. The salmon currently in the hatchery are getting stocked as soon as the new 2014 fish code regulations go into effect (i.e. making Tilcon a Holdover Trout Lake) - that's all they are waiting for at this point. Tilcon got a few trout fingerlings previously, but it will not be stocked with trout on an ongoing basis making it a salmon specific fishery (along with bass, pickerel and some perch).

[HerringKing]

I do a trip to Areoflex once a year. I have caught landlocks on every trip. Nothing giant, usually in the 12"- 17" range but they are fun. There are nice sized bass and picks there so Lard Almighty might be right.

[The Birdman]

I went up to wawayanda today for a couple hours since it is not too far from my house. man was it cold. No luck with the salmon. all fish were sitting on the bottom @58 ft with lockjaw. water temp was 38!
Saw 2 Bald Eagles, they looked like a nesting pair.

I was also looking at my go to bait shops facebook page and there was a picture of a "football trout" caught at wawayanda. is this a silvery looking brown or a Landlock?? idk who this guy is i just stumbled upon the picture.

[Skunk City]

I do a trip to Areoflex once a year. I have caught landlocks on every trip. Nothing giant, usually in the 12"- 17" range but they are fun. There are nice sized bass and picks there so Lard Almighty might be right.

What kind of techniques do you guys use to target them? I've never fished for them, but my buddy just bought a house around the corner from Aeroflex, so it may happen eventually.

[slider]

Herring King: You did well to catch LL Salmon as often as u did..As for size my guess is these fish are holding over in Aeroflex, probably only 5 or 6 inches when stocked..That could be good sign..... Birdman that pic is a really nice Brown trout. LL salmon have a slight fork in tail, otherwise can be a little tough to tell Browns and salmon apart till u catch a few....By the way do u know where that Brownie was caught??------As far as tactics for LL Salmon: I'd suggest keep it simple.. To start fish the cooler months to start as early in spring as possible..They'll be on surface then, If u have motor slow troll using small spoons, spinners, small stick baits, and try streamers and sweep troll at least one rod...Drifting small live bait or slow troll small minnows will work, Probe deeper as water warms..Only problem I can see is that Wayway and Aeroflex get pounded. Plus landlocks not a very hardy fish mite be tough for a large number of them to hold over..

[HerringKing]

What kind of techniques do you guys use to target them? I've never fished for them, but my buddy just bought a house around the corner from Aeroflex, so it may happen eventually.


I do best at dusk and dawn trolling rapalas 2-4" under the surface. During the day set the fish finder to find the thermocline, then send a herring or shiner down to that depth. I've only caught 1 LL on bait and it was during the day. Every other was caught real early or late on raps

[ChaosStarter]

The salmon stocked so far this year were done in 2 increments. The first when the fish were first acquired in May when they were smaller and the second was on November 21 when they were a little smaller than those now remaining. The salmon currently in the hatchery are getting stocked as soon as the new 2014 fish code regulations go into effect (i.e. making Tilcon a Holdover Trout Lake) - that's all they are waiting for at this point. Tilcon got a few trout fingerlings previously, but it will not be stocked with trout on an ongoing basis making it a salmon specific fishery (along with bass, pickerel and some perch).


Welcome to the ruining of another great fishery. It was nice while it lasted.

God forbid us bass guys get anything good in NJ to ourselves. Gotta shove ****ing trout in everything and everywhere.

Any word on stocking bass anywhere? Nope. Just more goddamn trout.

[Chrisk]

Coming back here from the Finger Lakes I thought Round Valley would be the best place to stock LL's it being deep and cold. Quess theres more to it then that.

[Chrisk]

I do best at dusk and dawn trolling rapalas 2-4" under the surface. During the day set the fish finder to find the thermocline, then send a herring or shiner down to that depth. I've only caught 1 LL on bait and it was during the day. Every other was caught real early or late on raps
Fishing sawbellies under lanterns works.

[slider]

I fail to see many Jersey waters being ruined because of trout being stocked..Maybe because we are a heavily populated and our lakes get pounded hard...Can u imagine if they quit stocking trout how much fishing pressure would be placed on our bass population....Fortunately bass to pretty darn good reproducing in our waters..Unfortuantly trout dont reproduce well most lakes with warm and cold water species work out pretty well..Think some one just blowing smoke with no real facts....Live and let live I say....

[Fishon1982]

I have fished both those lakes with good success up Til June then the waters to warm to have a good release for a trout but I trolled spoons around at all depth and caught many 14 to 18 inch LL i noticed that they like a lil more speed than the rainbows and browns I use downriggers and leadcore... That pic of the big brown is my buddy Lou and he is an awesome trout fisherman

[slider]

Good to hear ur report Fishon...In fact thats the best report I've heard bout Wayway in years..Aeroflex different story, My buddies fished it when it was private and was loaded with big browns, huge bass and pickerel..However it wasn't bombed the way it has been since the state took over and opened it to the public..But Nj F&G doing its best to stock and bring back some of its waters..Could be happening..Sure hope it does..Both these waters seem capable but I agree with earlier statement..Round valley would be the best over all place for land locks..

[Jigman13]

Merrill would work too. It's crazy deep up there.

[CadiShackFishing]

Caught one this past year in Aeroflex. It might have been 12 inches or so.

[GetANet]

Sorry, but just not interested in them.

[ChaosStarter]

Sorry, but just not interested in them.


Or their need to be wasted with money on stocking.

[AndyS]

Never say never to bass stocking. Rally the troops, send e mails, write letters, get ALL the bass fishing people (including clubs) to band together for bass stocking. Go to F&G meetings, attend a F&G Council meeting, talk to your local Federation chapter.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/contactform.htm

Look at Trout Unlimited, they all got together and had MANY changes to the F&G code proposed and passed.

If I'm not fishing, I'm writing letters, attending meetings, and looking at all the F&G publications.

[gwl2oneida]

I'd rather rally troops for more catch n release programs.

[slider]

All isn't lost for bass fisherman at least according to what i've found out about bass stocking in NJ..In 2012 Hackesttown hatchery stocked lots of bass in 2012, didn;t have time to check out 2013 stocking numbers, but from what I understand 20 lakes and ponds in Nj were stocked with 21,920 LMB, 15,068 SMB went into 4 lakes, 46,766 Hybrids were stocked in 4 lakes..Totals 83,754, now if they stocked the same amount in 2013 means 167,508 combined total of all bass were stocked..Not too shabby....But like I stated when I started this thread, wondered if its worth stocking LL salmon in Nj waters, while I'm at it heres another question, is it worth stocking 2430 Lake Trout in Monksville reservoir yearly??? I do give the state credit for trying to make NJ waters more interesting to fish..I'm sure most anglers would agree, Variety of fish available makes it interesting and challenging to anglers....I too have my doubts Salmon and lake Trout stocking needs more research by the Fish & Game. As to where these fish should be planted...Just my 2 cents worth..

[UglyStick]

I’m with Slider but before I jump into this, I want to say that I fish for all species, the least of which is trout. I fail to see how anyone could say that trout stocking is ruining any of our fisheries, short of the overpopulation of lake trout perhaps. Luckily, in 2013 NJ has discontinued stocking lake trout since there is no need as those are reproducing populations. Logically, to have a great overall fishery you want diversity and need to stock those species that do not successfully reproduce in NJ waters. Here, both largemouth and smallmouth bass basically take care of themselves reproduction wise although F&W does supplement these populations based on their sample tests.

It is a known fact that the NJ trout fishery (including production and stocking) counts for the majority of fishing license sales in NJ. These sales (along with some other sources including federal funds) is what creates the NJ Fish & Wildlife budget that allows for the production and stocking of nearly 1 million warm water fish each year including Northern Pike, Muskellunge, Tiger Muskie, Walleye, Striped Bass Hybrid, Channel Catfish, Largemouth Bass, Smallmouth Bass, Brown Bullhead, Bluegill Sunfish, White Crappie; Fathead Minnows and Gambusia.

Think about it, without these “trout monies”, there would be insufficient funding for Craig and the boys at the Hackettstown hatchery who do an amazing job not only improving the bass fishery but also every other non-trout fishery we enjoy.

Why not salmon also… especially since we receive them free from MA in exchange for surplus pike. As for where they get stocked, I’m not a fish biologist but F&W does carefully evaluate our waterways when these decisions are made. If you want to know why Aeroflex and Waywayanda and not Round Valley or Merril Creek then contact Pat Hamilton at F&W and ask, she’ll be happy to tell you why. I know that besides suitability (depth, temp, DO), Tilcon was chosen because salmon are often confused with browns and this will remedy that as no other trout will be stocked there. Tilcon also does not get pounded the way many lakes do since it has such limited access and this should help with establishing their population there. Will these salmon ruin the bass/pickerel/perch fishery at Tilcon?... Don’t see it…

To the naysayers who think our fisheries are being ruined by trout, that salmon are a waste of money, or that nothing is done to support “bass guys” who want their own waterways, I would LOVE for you to share your ideas on what you think F&W SHOULD be doing instead of their current management plan regarding stocking (I support catch and release regulations but that is a different topic). If your suggestions make sense within themselves AND with respect to the overall NJ fishery, I would be happy to bring these suggestions up at a future freshwater fisheries forum myself.

[slider]

You touched all the bases Ugly Stick...Cept maybe adding a few extra words about what kind of shape the state would be in financially if we lost a large group of fisherman, like the anglers that pursue trout..Or any group for that matter..I believe that no matter our choice of fish to pursue we always seem to have a bond with a fellow angler wether he fishs the salt or fresh waters of our state..And when u follow this forum u see the eagerness of fellow anglers are to help one another..Great place to discuss fishing, stocking tackle u name it some one here will come up with an answer...I don't have the answer to my orginal thought bout where or should we stock LL salmon..Then the question came up about stocking sea run browns, then Lake trout in Monksville..What better place or time of year for that matter to kick these subjects around..But as fisherman after the same goal, lets improve our waters even if its not our game fish of choice..Tite lines guys and Happy Holidays------Slider

[bulletbob]

NJ is a tough place to have a strong viable LL fishery.. Its too far south really IMHO.. They are not as inclined to stay in the thermocline like browns and rainbows.. They are a surface oriented fish by nature, actually a stream fish.. Here in the Fingers, when browns and rainbows are in the thermocline at 50 feet, the salmon are at 25-30 feet...
They do not reproduce here in NY state , anywhere, and are maintained by stocking.. Even with our huge deep cold glacial Finger lakes with inlet and outlet streams that run for many miles, they cannot reproduce.. It seems a waste to have to troll downriggers or run wire for a 15 inch fish on a small NJ lake.. They are here in Seneca and cayuga only a few hours away from N jersey.. Yes they put on a more arial display than browns, and are faster, but they don't get near as big as a rule .. Big fat ones are less prone to leaping.. I have caught some big ones up to 10 pounds here, but thats rare..
They are being decimated up here by lampreys, and the fishery in Cayuga has suffered terribly.. Little ones 10 inches long with lampreys attached.. sickening..
Also thousands are killed because the samll ones are very aggressive and swallow trebles easily, or are caught on downriggers, and can't pull the release and drown.. the trollers never even know they hooked one... If you locate them they are ready biters.. Up here April and may are good months for surface casting or flatline trolling with rapalas[Can't beat a good silver/black!].. After that its all downriggers, wire, leadcore or dipseys until late fall...bob

[slider]

Good in put Bob, unless we get lucky here in Jersey we mite be wasting our time stocking, but if they take could be lots of fun..Lake Champlain is the only place I know of right now thats having any success with LL"s numerous fish coming out in excess of 4 & 5 lbs..Vermont side seems to be having some good results in natural reproduction..Lake George did ok up till bout 10 years ago, now their fishery has fallen flat, thousands stocked yearly hardly any being caught. The lakes we are stoking here are on small side gas motors not even allowed..Although not sure on Aeroflex..So would possible make good spring and late fall fishing fun here..But suspect your right..Tough job to get these fish to take. Time will tell

[bulletbob]

Good in put Bob, unless we get lucky here in Jersey we mite be wasting our time stocking, but if they take could be lots of fun..Lake Champlain is the only place I know of right now thats having any success with LL"s numerous fish coming out in excess of 4 & 5 lbs..Vermont side seems to be having some good results in natural reproduction..Lake George did ok up till bout 10 years ago, now their fishery has fallen flat, thousands stocked yearly hardly any being caught. The lakes we are stoking here are on small side gas motors not even allowed..Although not sure on Aeroflex..So would possible make good spring and late fall fishing fun here..But suspect your right..Tough job to get these fish to take. Time will tell

Historically, Cayuga Lake was the best LL lake in NY.. I used to catch big ones right from shore in spring including a monster at 31 inches, and 10 pounds..." The lampreys have really destroyed the fishery.. Supposedly, the are going to treat this spring, and kill off the massive numbers of those hideous parasites.. Last time they did it about 10 years ago, the LL fishing bounced back within a year or two, and then declined after several good years as the lampreys increased again... IF the fishery bounces back, its worth the ride up in April and May to fish for LL salmon.. they are not hard to catch when they are close to the surface...
As far as NJ is concerned, I wish NJ fisheries experts every good luck.. perhaps you will get a fair fishery established, but these fish need a lot of room and a lot of food.. Oily food like Herring. [Sawbellies here in NY]. Otherwise they stay small, and just don't seem to do very well.. We have them in Skaneateles Lake, which is gin clear, pristine, deep, ice cold, and not fished hard.. Its a very large Finger Lake.. However. The LL don't do well there, even though there are no lampreys.. In my opinion its because of an insufficient forage base.. They like fatty bait fish, just like any other salmon.. You must remember, ALL Salmon are basically salt water fish, that only spawn in fresh water.. They are active, and need calories.. If their diet/habitat is insufficient, so will the LL population be. bob

[UglyStick]

I agree with all of Bob's comments. But I think in this conversation we need to level set what we are expecting here in NJ. "Establishing" a LLS fishery here is a relative term and I don't think anyone at F&W is expecting one comparable to the Finger Lakes (lamprey problem aside) or Champlain which is still OK. I prefer to think of this as creating a smaller scale niche fishery that can add a challenge and some additional fun for those interested in pursuing it. Are these fish going to reproduce or grow to 5 -10 lbs here... for the most part no... and that's OK too (even though the state record is an 8lb'er from Aeroflex). If you read F&W's own press release, it states "intended to provide anglers with an opportunity to catch salmon that commonly range from 12" – 17", and an expectation of catching an occasional salmon in excess of 17" (3 pounds)." I think this is what we have now and can continue to expect as long as the program exists. Even though relatively few anglers will utilize this fishery, is it ruining our waterways or a waste of money (which was my point in chiming in on this)... I say absolutely not. Aside from the angling opportunity, I say a more diverse fishery adds to the intrinsic value of NJ's environment which makes it a better place to live. This is one of the principle concepts behind being a conservationist.

[ChaosStarter]

I’m with Slider but before I jump into this, I want to say that I fish for all species, the least of which is trout. I fail to see how anyone could say that trout stocking is ruining any of our fisheries, short of the overpopulation of lake trout perhaps. Luckily, in 2013 NJ has discontinued stocking lake trout since there is no need as those are reproducing populations. Logically, to have a great overall fishery you want diversity and need to stock those species that do not successfully reproduce in NJ waters. Here, both largemouth and smallmouth bass basically take care of themselves reproduction wise although F&W does supplement these populations based on their sample tests.

It is a known fact that the NJ trout fishery (including production and stocking) counts for the majority of fishing license sales in NJ. These sales (along with some other sources including federal funds) is what creates the NJ Fish & Wildlife budget that allows for the production and stocking of nearly 1 million warm water fish each year including Northern Pike, Muskellunge, Tiger Muskie, Walleye, Striped Bass Hybrid, Channel Catfish, Largemouth Bass, Smallmouth Bass, Brown Bullhead, Bluegill Sunfish, White Crappie; Fathead Minnows and Gambusia.

Think about it, without these “trout monies”, there would be insufficient funding for Craig and the boys at the Hackettstown hatchery who do an amazing job not only improving the bass fishery but also every other non-trout fishery we enjoy.

Why not salmon also… especially since we receive them free from MA in exchange for surplus pike. As for where they get stocked, I’m not a fish biologist but F&W does carefully evaluate our waterways when these decisions are made. If you want to know why Aeroflex and Waywayanda and not Round Valley or Merril Creek then contact Pat Hamilton at F&W and ask, she’ll be happy to tell you why. I know that besides suitability (depth, temp, DO), Tilcon was chosen because salmon are often confused with browns and this will remedy that as no other trout will be stocked there. Tilcon also does not get pounded the way many lakes do since it has such limited access and this should help with establishing their population there. Will these salmon ruin the bass/pickerel/perch fishery at Tilcon?... Don’t see it…

To the naysayers who think our fisheries are being ruined by trout, that salmon are a waste of money, or that nothing is done to support “bass guys” who want their own waterways, I would LOVE for you to share your ideas on what you think F&W SHOULD be doing instead of their current management plan regarding stocking (I support catch and release regulations but that is a different topic). If your suggestions make sense within themselves AND with respect to the overall NJ fishery, I would be happy to bring these suggestions up at a future freshwater fisheries forum myself.


I'm not disagreeing with the 'trout monies' aspect. However, when regulations are put into effect that (as a bass guy) tells me I can't fish a certain lake when I want to because of trout stocking, it's horseshit. I don't care about trout and I shouldn't have to suffer not being able to fish my lakes that I want to fish because they decided to 'try' stocking trout there. They won't be able to keep me out of there if they 'close' a part of the season because of stocking.

As far as Tilcon. That place used to be much better with bigger fish. Now a 4lb LMB is hard to come by. The current bank beaters are taking everything out of there, and leaving loads of garbage behind. That place used to be beautiful. Now it's filled with trash all over the place. You think putting trout/salmon in there is going to lessen that? Plus, the bait population there just manages to support the current population of fish and you want to put another predatory fish in there?

Have we learned nothing from the lakers? How they decimated the browns, bass and bait at RVR to the point where bait now has to be stocked itself. There are so many other lakes that you could put fish like LLs into.

And I have sent letters, multiple letters with no response. They're going to ruin Tilcon, and it's the truth. God forbid they ever open up access to that place.

[UglyStick]

I agree that Tilcon used to be better with bigger fish but unfortunately this is the exact same thing that can be said for any body of water subsequent to it being opened to the public. I personally don’t see the bank beaters taking everything out of Tilcon nor have I seen an unreasonable amount of garbage like at Split Rock. The shoreline access (steep and overgrown) really helps to limit the fishing pressure in addition to it being fairly difficult to get even a yak or canoe in there. Unfortunately, in NJ the bucket brigade exists everywhere and there will always be some garbage left by irresponsible people, no stocking practice will fix this. However, none of that has anything to do with stocking salmon and it is unlikely that the bucket brigade and litterbugs will increase due to the addition of these fish.

With respect to the lakers at RVR, I will acknowledge that it was an error in population management (years of stocking and assuming that they would not reproduce) which has caused a significant shortage in forage that has affected the other species there. Recent population studies there show that the numbers of game fish are not as much of a problem as the size of those fish. Granted, I am over-simplifying the laker issue but if anything, this has been a valuable lesson for F&W. Also note there is no scientific evidence I am aware of that lakers are a problem in Merrill or Monksville.

F&W studied the fish population (including baitfish) at Tilcon as part of their evaluation. If anyone has any scientific evidence supporting that the bait population there just manages to support the current population of fish I would love to see it and would even deliver it to F&W myself. It is worthy of mention that the introduction of salmon to Aeroflex and Waywayanda has ruined neither and they are both holdover trout lakes so they have no closed period. With respect to F&W doing something that helps the bass guys… they stocked smallmouth in Tilcon.

I encourage the writing of letters to F&W and if they go unanswered, attend any of the freshwater fisheries forums and pose your questions and comments during the meeting. The staff will have to respond and do it on the record.

Now…everyone is entitled to their opinion but…

I think most would agree that it is a selfish attitude that does not represent the best interest of the fishery or the sport in general to consider it suffering and unreasonable to only be able to fish certain lakes for a less than 3 week period at the end of march/beginning of April. To say that it is ruining a fishery and is horsesh!t because it inconveniences a few individuals personal agenda for a small period of time is simply ridiculous.

In addition, to publicly state the intent to commit the illegal act of poaching (violation of the terms of a NJ fishing license), by fishing during the closed period, is un-sportsman like to say the least. Better hope Chief Barno doesn’t read this…

[ChaosStarter]

I agree that Tilcon used to be better with bigger fish but unfortunately this is the exact same thing that can be said for any body of water subsequent to it being opened to the public. I personally don’t see the bank beaters taking everything out of Tilcon nor have I seen an unreasonable amount of garbage like at Split Rock. The shoreline access (steep and overgrown) really helps to limit the fishing pressure in addition to it being fairly difficult to get even a yak or canoe in there. Unfortunately, in NJ the bucket brigade exists everywhere and there will always be some garbage left by irresponsible people, no stocking practice will fix this. However, none of that has anything to do with stocking salmon and it is unlikely that the bucket brigade and litterbugs will increase due to the addition of these fish.

With respect to the lakers at RVR, I will acknowledge that it was an error in population management (years of stocking and assuming that they would not reproduce) which has caused a significant shortage in forage that has affected the other species there. Recent population studies there show that the numbers of game fish are not as much of a problem as the size of those fish. Granted, I am over-simplifying the laker issue but if anything, this has been a valuable lesson for F&W. Also note there is no scientific evidence I am aware of that lakers are a problem in Merrill or Monksville.

F&W studied the fish population (including baitfish) at Tilcon as part of their evaluation. If anyone has any scientific evidence supporting that the bait population there just manages to support the current population of fish I would love to see it and would even deliver it to F&W myself. It is worthy of mention that the introduction of salmon to Aeroflex and Waywayanda has ruined neither and they are both holdover trout lakes so they have no closed period. With respect to F&W doing something that helps the bass guys… they stocked smallmouth in Tilcon.

I encourage the writing of letters to F&W and if they go unanswered, attend any of the freshwater fisheries forums and pose your questions and comments during the meeting. The staff will have to respond and do it on the record.

Now…everyone is entitled to their opinion but…

I think most would agree that it is a selfish attitude that does not represent the best interest of the fishery or the sport in general to consider it suffering and unreasonable to only be able to fish certain lakes for a less than 3 week period at the end of march/beginning of April. To say that it is ruining a fishery and is horsesh!t because it inconveniences a few individuals personal agenda for a small period of time is simply ridiculous.

In addition, to publicly state the intent to commit the illegal act of poaching (violation of the terms of a NJ fishing license), by fishing during the closed period, is un-sportsman like to say the least. Better hope Chief Barno doesn’t read this…


I will admit, I tend to be a lot more emotional about this place than other other place in NJ and tend to get slightly heated when I read changes like this as I've been fishing it for a long time. I won't break the law or my fishing license agreement. I'll just argue about it over the internet like most people. ;)

I will however, disagree (and this is obviously just my opinion) that a lake should be closed for a 2-3 week holdover period. I feel a catch and release timeframe would a much better practice especially when I would not even be fishing for the fish that it's closed for. Why block out everyone just for 200 8" fish to get used to waters there? I don't think this should be considered poaching especially. I'm not keeping anything (nor do I ever, except salt water fishing), and everything gets thrown back.

I had this issue with Shadow Lake for a LONG time. Now, that's a whole different lake setup to begin with but, one of the better times to fish was over the closed period due to the time of year and the springtime warmup. Obviously, this no longer matters because they're discontinuing the trout there.

I'm just concerned that the state has so many big trophy trout lakes and lakes that are better suited for stocking trout/salmon. Why do they want to put these fish in an 80 acre lake? Just because its springfed and hits 50' in one spot? Now I know they put 400 smallies into Tilcon last year (or the year before, either way). So now you have a possible 4 total predatory fish (SMB, LMB, Pickerel, and LL's) chasing forage throughout the water column. I've caught LMB at 30' depths on the bottom. Smallies will be there too and even deeper.

I just honestly hope that it doesn't hurt the fishing there. This could end up hurting the gamefish population there and then what? Maybe an apology that they'll never make? Congrats, we ruined a another lake? We wasted so many smallmouth on Audrey just to have the pH drop and turn into a LMB lake anyway. Where are they going to start putting those smallies?

All that being said, if this is considered a trout holdover lake like RVR, then it will never close, correct?

And for the record, I honestly really do appreciate you having this conversation with me because I can vent about things (even if things never change) and actually get some kind of logical answers. :D :D :p

I'd like to attend more meetings but with my work schedule, the early evenings and Saturday's are tough to get to due to locations. I wanted to go to the December 7th meeting but had to work. :mad:

[UglyStick]

It’s all good Chaos…the fact the so many people here have such a passion for the sport is what keeps the forum interesting. I haven’t seen enough data on either side to debate whether spring trout stocking should be a closed period or just a catch and release period but it is an interesting question. My personal opinion is that it isn't that big of a deal being a closed period. Maybe Mark B. can chime in here on the reasoning behind F&W’s policy surrounding this.

Lake Audrey… ok, that was another fail but not entirely the state’s fault. I don’t know why they thought the neutralization would be permanent but bottom line is it didn’t work.

I can’t say that F&W gets it all right all of the time but no one does. I do believe that they are a very bright bunch of people who work hard and overall do an excellent job for very modest if not meak salaries because they really believe in what they are trying to accomplish. Because of this, in any given situation, I support that they are making well researched educated decisions that will succeed until proven otherwise.

I too love Tilcon and after talking with F&W at the last forum believe that the introduction of salmon should work out fine – just have some faith and believe in it. They know that there are a number of anglers that don't want to see anything about that place change so they didn't take the decision lightly. And yes, since it will be a holdover trout lake the same regulations (no closed period just catch and release) should apply.

[slider]

I agree with stick all is good Chaos, But I know how u feel and look at things here in Jersey also...I go back a long long ways to the days when Wawayanda was still owned by the Zinc Co..Only about 15 or 16 boats for rent there and that was it, like being on ur own private lake,Then along comes progress and Green Acres buys the Lake back around 64..Next comes stocking of trout..Well the bass and pickerel fishing prior too was out of this word, but trout seemed to take and 3, 4, 5 and even bigger trout showed up, every one and his uncle started fishing there..Rest is history..It was for the good of the state but for us young guys it was like our private wilderness was destroyed..Hardly ever fish there any more...I guess what I'm trying to say..Progess isn't always good for every individual..But if nothing ventured nothing gained..I don't want to get carried away cause I'd be here for hours just on what I've seen both good and bad in over 60 years of fishing both NJ and NY..Hang in there..One tip, diversify ur fishing habits, mite just surprise your self...Slider

[ChaosStarter]

If I catch a 12" LL there, can I use it for live lining? :D :p

[UglyStick]

As long as it isn't during the catch and release period... smart @ss... :cool:

[FASTEDDIE29]

Very small diverse state we have here. The best stocking program around. The more species the merrier. LL pull like monsters, love em, although I haven't caught 1 in NJ yet. I say load em up, they're sticking with it so NJFG must be onto something.

TIGHT LINEZ!!!!!

[gypsy]

I am very familar with the Landlock Salmon fishery in Lake George, the problem is the forgage fish, smelt is being depleted by the Lake Trout, same as we have in Round Valley, and Merrill Creek. Lake Champlain has an awesome Salmon fishery, the main forage is alewife, they seem to do so much better than the native smelt. Wish they would stock those Salmon in Merrill Creek and Round Valley. Lakers were a good idea in the beginning, but they are eating everything in site. And yes I caught one in Lake George this past July, wasn't a keeper, but couldn't keep the thing in the water, they love to leap. Schroon River has a good run in the spring, but they are in that river year round, also caught them there in the summer, that new fish ladder and dam kinda ruined the trout fishery at Starbuckville. We used to fly fish at night at the old dam and really do well with trout, now you have to find the holes, before the water was deep below the falls, now it's very shallow except where the fish ladder, and main outflow is

[slider]

I doubt Lake Trout are devouring all the smelt in Lake George, neither are they consuming all the alewives in R.V Res. Lake George is not blessed with good spawning creeks and streams. Numerous bad spawns in different spawn cycles has hurt the bait fish population at times there.. I'd bet that the state of NY has used the same strain of salmon for spawning purposes that they have weakened that strain and is no longer a viable fish to stocked and survive in the wild..Lakers in the last 5 years at least to me have increased in size and weight compared to fish of the late 90's and early 2000. Rv unfortuantly must deal with alewives that for some unknown reason have massive die offs after spawning which often leaves their population numbers down for several years.. NJ"s other lakes with alewives will probably have the same difficulties in years to come..Hopefully not and these new LL salmon can survive, I have my doubts that will happen even though I hope they take hold..

[bulletbob]

I doubt Lake Trout are devouring all the smelt in Lake George, neither are they consuming all the alewives in R.V Res. Lake George is not blessed with good spawning creeks and streams. Numerous bad spawns in different spawn cycles has hurt the bait fish population at times there.. I'd bet that the state of NY has used the same strain of salmon for spawning purposes that they have weakened that strain and is no longer a viable fish to stocked and survive in the wild..Lakers in the last 5 years at least to me have increased in size and weight compared to fish of the late 90's and early 2000. Rv unfortuantly must deal with alewives that for some unknown reason have massive die offs after spawning which often leaves their population numbers down for several years.. NJ"s other lakes with alewives will probably have the same difficulties in years to come..Hopefully not and these new LL salmon can survive, I have my doubts that will happen even though I hope they take hold..

Interesting,,, I wonder if some NJ lakes are simply too small to have self sustaining , stable alewife populations??. Not sure they can endure an environmental fluctuation that may kill much of the planton etc... Here in NY I often read massive schools of sawbellies on my FF.. They are sometimes in over 200 FOW... Remember these are herring, and like cold water... Its only a theory, but I wonder if the much smaller NJ lakes would be able to support a steady population.. Maybe thats why some predators do better than others in NJ.. They have a broader forage base.. I dunno, just making conversation. Salmonids in lakes need a lot of hi calorie forage.

Yu guys are right btw, lakers eat EVERYTHING.. they are notorious for eating hatchery fish while they are being released...

We have a lake called keuka thats loaded with lakers.. If you're a good jigger, 50 a day is not unheard of,,, They are on the smaller side, avg 2-4 lbs..when you check the bottom with your graph,as well as the mid and upper depths, all you see are lakers.. Its big news when someone reads a school of sawbellies in Keuka.. The lakers have eaten them all... Matter of fact NYS DEC this year has upped the limit of lakers to 5 fish a day in that lake.. Problem is, they suck to eat!,,,, bob

[slider]

I wonder the same thing Bob, Lets face it Jersey is a small state, We don't have any real big bodies of freshwater..The ones we have are already established with their own species of cold and warm water fish...As was mentioned earlier it would fit into a small nitch of water..Probably be tough for the salmon to take hold and grow with little baitfish to establish good growth rate..Good subject to kick around, nothing ventured nothing gained,,Jersey been trying to get sea run browns established for years, maybe mother nature will smile down on our F&G...The one I doubt will take off is the stocking of a couple thousand Lake Trout in Monksville the last few years..

[CarterB]

I have fished for landlocked salmon and brook trout for years at Mooselookmeguntic Lake in upper Maine. Always right after ice out and always on the surface with streamer flies, (no or very little weights) and am most successful.
How about such at Lake Waywayanda? Anyone with success using surface streamers? What time/s of year?

I don't like using lead line or weights to go deep. Takes the fun out of fly fishing.

CarterB

[Chrisper4694]

trolled flat wing flies on the first 5' of surface a few winters ago with good success. sometimes they're deeper, depends on the sun, wind, etc. will mark them and all the bait at 30' sometimes for example and thats where you have to fish to have a chance. your best bet is probably an overcast day in winter before or after ice while the water is still cold with maybe just enough wind to put a ripple on the surface to break up what little light there is. i also wouldn't be surprised if they bit good on moon lit nights, but i've never tried it.