NJ 2024 and 2025 Fluke Regulations Decided

[Gerry Zagorski]

On the Webinar right now and the councils preferred option was 32 which is 3 fish at 18 inches or better from 5/4 - 9/25 which affords us the longest season.

Most every public comment supported option 32 as well, both written and at the meeting/webinar.

Great to see so many people made comments, the council mentioned this was the most comments they ever received and appreciated the public input.

Job well done and option 32 was chosen

3 fish at 18 inches or better from 5/4 - 9/25

Interesting that there was a good bit of discussion of splitting the state regulations up between north and south... Something I fully support since they are 2 totally different fisheries and the closer decisions are made to people, the closer the regulations will be to what the people want.

Tip of the cap to Dr Pat who kept us all informed here and to the staff at the state for a well run meeting all their work gathering an accounting for public opinion.

[FASTEDDIE29]

Been paying close attention to this as I’m an avid shore Fluke angler from July through September! Usually miss most of the beginning of the season but that’s fine. Thank you to all that support the cause and keep us informed. :D

[Jigman13]

Just glad they did away w the slot. Shit was awful

[catsmeow]

Wow, i think this is the best option that slot limit was horrible. As pretty much 100 % fluke fisherman love the longer season. Really looking foward to this season with a renewed interest. Thanks to all those who hepled make this option the one chosen. Tight lines....walt

[frugalfisherman]

2021 it was 3 at 18 from May 22 until September 19. 2024 and 2025 sounds like an increase to me.

[hammer4reel]

On the Webinar right now and the councils preferred option was 32 which is 3 fish at 18 inches or better from 5/4 - 9/25 which affords us the longest season.

Most every public comment supported option 32 as well, both written and at the meeting/webinar.

Great to see so many people made comments, the council mentioned this was the most comments they ever received and appreciated the public input.

Job well done and option 32 was chosen

3 fish at 18 inches or better from 5/4 - 9/25

Interesting that there was a good bit of discussion of splitting the state regulations up between north and south... Something I fully support since they are 2 totally different fisheries and the closer decisions are made to people, the closer the regulations will be to what the people want.

Tip of the cap to Dr Pat who kept us all informed here and to the staff at the state for a well run meeting all their work gathering an accounting for public opinion.

IMO it’s a good thing there was so much public opinion for option 32 . As it was very apparent 3 council members did not want us to get 32.
Even stating that in record .
Without the over welming public comment it could have had different results .

Was great that everything was done early this year instead of last minute .

Best part is we get a break from the reg making process for fluke until 2026

[Gerry Zagorski]

IMO it’s a good thing there was so much public opinion for option 32 . As it was very apparent 3 council members did not want us to get 32.
Even stating that in record .
Without the over welming public comment it could have had different results .

Was great that everything was done early this year instead of last minute .

Best part is we get a break from the reg making process for fluke until 2026

For sure Dan, it was great to see that those who wanted to be heard were and that all the public input was accounted for. It certainly did make a huge difference.

I think it also forced more serious conversations about splitting the state. The council members that reluctantly went along with 32 but voiced their concerns now have of a vested interest in seeing that through.

[dales529]

Agreed the public comments worked this time for sure, The webinar worked very well this year too, I believe all of us that "raised their hand" virtually got to speak and were heard. Thanks to the council for jumping right to the chase as Dan mentioned so it wasnt dragged out!

There was representation from a few "divers" clubs that brought up some interesting points on the slot as its hard for an underwater fishermen to distinguish between a 17" and 17.99" fish. Doesn't matter with these new regs though. Also some discussion on a spear fishermen being land based angler? Not sure how that ended up.

Anyway Public comment mattered this year and it was easy to attend the meeting.

[Broad Bill]

I'm happy for the ones who feel good about the selection of option 32, 3 at 18" and a 145 days season. What I find ironic is many of the same people happy about that outcome I can go back and find posts where they've said asking for longer seasons and jacking the size minimum is at the heart of this stock's problems and the reason recruitment levels have tanked. These regulations mean the commercial sector will have complete exclusivity to the harvest of fish 14" to 18" which is an enormous benefit to the commercial sector and an outright injustice to the recreational angler. It also means the commercial sector will have a year round fishery while the recreational sector maybe squeezes out three months. It mean the commercial sector and recreational sector will be harvesting all sexually mature fish with an extremely high percentage of those fish being females. It means the spawn will continue being attacked in the fall and recruitment, the lifeblood of any fishery, will continue being at risk due to fishery management incompetence. If other fisheries have regulations to protect the primary spawn of the stock, why isn't summer flounder which based on their own data has had historically low recruitment classes for over a decade dating back to numbers in the eighties.

Short term crumbs causing long term continued erosion of the resource in my book isn't a reason to celebrate but as been said many times on this site which I completely agree with, these problems are at the federal level and until changes and restrictions are made to the commercial by NMFS this stock will struggle to sustain itself.

Changing the dynamics and fortunes of this fishery will require changes and sacrifices from both sectors. Recreational has already made more than their fare share of sacrifices, what has the commercial sector sacrificed?

[dales529]

I'm happy for the ones who feel good about the selection of option 32, 3 at 18" and a 145 days season. What I find ironic is many of the same people happy about that outcome I can go back and find posts where they've said asking for longer seasons and jacking the size minimum is at the heart of this stock's problems and the reason recruitment levels have tanked. These regulations mean the commercial sector will have complete exclusivity to the harvest of fish 14" to 18" which is an enormous benefit to the commercial sector and an outright injustice to the recreational angler. It also means the commercial sector will have a year round fishery while the recreational sector maybe squeezes out three months. It mean the commercial sector and recreational sector will be harvesting all sexually mature fish with an extremely high percentage of those fish being females. It means the spawn will continue being attacked in the fall and recruitment, the lifeblood of any fishery, will continue being at risk due to fishery management incompetence. If other fisheries have regulations to protect the primary spawn of the stock, why isn't summer flounder which based on their own data has had historically low recruitment classes for over a decade dating back to numbers in the eighties.

Short term crumbs causing long term continued erosion of the resource in my book isn't a reason to celebrate but as been said many times on this site which I completely agree with, these problems are at the federal level and until changes and restrictions are made to the commercial by NMFS this stock will struggle to sustain itself.

Changing the dynamics and fortunes of this fishery will require changes and sacrifices from both sectors. Recreational has already made more than their fare share of sacrifices, what has the commercial sector sacrificed?

BB: Fair points and I wouldn't say most that advocate on behalf of the Fluke stock are celebrating. Just picking the battles as they come and what we can influence. In this case and just my opinion option 32 was what was best for NJ overall, the NJ for hire and related industries that can at least stay in business while the battles outside our NJ Fishery continue. NJ hands were tied on the federal level so this outcome while not a cause to "celebrate" was again in my opinion the best option available for this battle.

Capt Dan did in fact raise the issue on commercial take to the council so at least it was on record for future consideration but again on your data points on biomass / recruitment is as you stated a federal issue for NOAA, ASMFC, MAMFC and Sectretary of Commerce and we all know how thats gone:eek:

Again if MRIP acknowledges a 40% anomoly in fishing effort / harvest and again in my opinion I dont see how these recreational regulations destroy the stock. Yes taking breeders is not optimal but as you state often the correction for the stock is on the commercial side so leave recs out of it and lets fish with conservation as the goal .

[Fishin Dude]

Was a victory for those of us who supported option 32, and as an added bonus attached to option 32, the Scup Season will only be closed for 2 months of the year as opposed to 7 months closure last year, size & bag limits stay the same. That will also benefit the Party/Charter/Tackle Shop guys and those fishermen who love the Porgies. That fishery will open as soon as the Commissioner signs the option.
2023 Season was only open from 9/1- 12/31 , 2024 & 2025 will now be open 1/1 - 6/30 & 9/1 - 12/31, same bag limit of 30 @ 10"

[Broad Bill]

BB: Fair points and I wouldn't say most that advocate on behalf of the Fluke stock are celebrating. Just picking the battles as they come and what we can influence. In this case and just my opinion option 32 was what was best for NJ overall, the NJ for hire and related industries that can at least stay in business while the battles outside our NJ Fishery continue. NJ hands were tied on the federal level so this outcome while not a cause to "celebrate" was again in my opinion the best option available for this battle.

Capt. Dan did in fact raise the issue on commercial take to the council so at least it was on record for future consideration but again on your data points on biomass / recruitment is as you stated a federal issue for NOAA, ASMFC, MAMFC and Secretary of Commerce and we all know how that's gone.

Again if MRIP acknowledges a 40% anomaly in fishing effort / harvest and again in my opinion I don't see how these recreational regulations destroy the stock. Yes taking breeders is not optimal but as you state often the correction for the stock is on the commercial side so leave recs out of it and lets fish with conservation as the goal .

Couldn't agree more. While I'm happy for the businesses and recreational anglers that count on or enjoy this fishery, I'm equally concerned about the long-term impact these regulations will have on the stock. If they've caused the need for a 28% reduction, right or wrong, for the next two years why would anyone believe the same regulations will not pose a more serious problem when it comes time to discuss 2026 / 2027 regulations. Using the same regulations or making the same decisions and hoping for a different outcome has never worked in my business career and I don't believe it will work here. Hope everyone has a great 2024 season.

[hammer4reel]

Couldn't agree more. While I'm happy for the businesses and recreational anglers that count on or enjoy this fishery, I'm equally concerned about the long-term impact these regulations will have on the stock. If they've caused the need for a 28% reduction, right or wrong, for the next two years why would anyone believe the same regulations will not pose a more serious problem when it comes time to discuss 2026 / 2027 regulations. Using the same regulations or making the same decisions and hoping for a different outcome has never worked in my business career and I don't believe it will work here. Hope everyone has a great 2024 season.

Most of the states fluke fishing took big hits against their quota , so hopefully cumulative it makes a difference .
I saw NC took a 70% reduction , which was mostly made up from commercial .
Though they are still landing 11000 a week .
They had 2 drops , goung from 30000 to 15000 to 11000 .
And in another year instead of 70% to commercial 30% to recs
Will be 60/40 then 50/50 the following .
So some big changes there , hopefully not entirely too late .
Seems recreational fisherman there after only having a 2 week season , and being told they still over fished had enough .

[hartattack]

Thanks for the comm update Cap. Is that for 2 years too?

[Broad Bill]

Most of the states fluke fishing took big hits against their quota , so hopefully cumulative it makes a difference .
I saw NC took a 70% reduction , which was mostly made up from commercial .
Though they are still landing 11000 a week .
They had 2 drops , going from 30000 to 15000 to 11000 .
And in another year instead of 70% to commercial 30% to recs
Will be 60/40 then 50/50 the following .
So some big changes there , hopefully not entirely too late .
Seems recreational fisherman there after only having a 2 week season , and being told they still over fished had enough .

Hammer could you provide source for your percentages. Where do you see NC took a 70% decrease and where do you see a 70/30 allocation between commercial and recreational? I thought a few years ago, NMFS based on the MRIP debacle, adjusted the allocation from 60/40 to 55/45, when did it go to 70/30? If you look at the allocation for 2024 / 2025, it looks to be more like 55/45. Just curious where you're getting your numbers from. If commercial goes from a 70% allocation of the overall catch to 50%, that would be a substantial move in the right direction for this fishery, just don't see those numbers reflected anywhere.

It looks like commercial took a 42% reduction in quota this year versus 28% for recreational and the allocation among states shifted from a lesser percentage to southern states to a greater percentage to northern states with NJ and NY being a significant benefactor. But does that mean NC took a 70% reduction? NC went from 3.3 million lbs. to 2.4 million lbs. or a 28% reduction but correct me if I'm wrong. Can't NC unloads there catch in NJ which means it goes against the NJ quota? If so, NC isn't limited to 2.4 million lbs. and didn't at all take a 70% reduction. Don't get me wrong, a 42% decrease is definitely a step in the right direction, now have NMFS close the commercial fishery during September and October to protect the spawn and you'll see this stock rebound like people haven't seen in 25 years.

[hammer4reel]

Hammer could you provide source for your percentages. Where do you see NC took a 70% decrease and where do you see a 70/30 allocation between commercial and recreational? I thought a few years ago, NMFS based on the MRIP debacle, adjusted the allocation from 60/40 to 55/45, when did it go to 70/30? If you look at the allocation for 2024 / 2025, it looks to be more like 55/45. Just curious where you're getting your numbers from. If commercial goes from a 70% allocation of the overall catch to 50%, that would be a substantial move in the right direction for this fishery, just don't see those numbers reflected anywhere.

It looks like commercial took a 42% reduction in quota this year versus 28% for recreational and the allocation among states shifted from a lesser percentage to southern states to a greater percentage to northern states with NJ and NY being a significant benefactor. But does that mean NC took a 70% reduction? NC went from 3.3 million lbs. to 2.4 million lbs. or a 28% reduction but correct me if I'm wrong. Can't NC unloads there catch in NJ which means it goes against the NJ quota? If so, NC isn't limited to 2.4 million lbs. and didn't at all take a 70% reduction. Don't get me wrong, a 42% decrease is definitely a step in the right direction, now have NMFS close the commercial fishery during September and October to protect the spawn and you'll see this stock rebound like people haven't seen in 25 years.

All info I posted came directly from NC fish and game website

[Broad Bill]

Please post link, would like to read it.

[Broad Bill]

The below links have the quotas for 2023, 2024 and I assume 2025 if we're working with a two year plan for recreational and commercial.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/bulletin/noaa-fisheries-approves-2023-summer-flounder-scup-and-black-sea-bass-specifications

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/bulletin/2024-and-projected-2025-specifications-summer-flounder-and-scup-fisheries-and-2024

As you said, a 28% decrease in recreational quotas which translated to the same regulations for NJ we had in 2021 which I don't understand at all but it is what it is and happy for recreation anglers, party and for hire operators is a good thing. A 42% cut to commercial from 15.2 million pounds to 8.8 million lbs. is huge. What NMFS and the commercial sector need to start realizing is if they protected the spawn and bolstered recruitment, these cuts wouldn't be necessary. Maybe one day the management of this resource will finally wake up and realize there's no stocking programs for salt water fisheries and the future of every stock is defendant on strong recruitment numbers which means the spawn needs to be protected and season closed for the benefit of the stock and both sectors. It would be a win for everyone.

[Broad Bill]

Pretty sure state quotas being filled are based on where fish are off loaded, not the state the boat is registered. So if NC fishes our waters and off loads their catch in NJ, pretty sure that catch goes against New Jersey's quota. In other words, it's landings based, not based on the state the boat is registered or sails from.

NC gave a portion of their quota to Virginia. I'd bet they did so to offload their catch closer than NC and save on their largest operating costs, gas. There's no way Chris Batsavage, Vice Chair of the summer flounder fishery, gave up one ounce of North Carolina's quota and if commercial was cut 42%, NC is going to do everything they can to grab every penny of their proportionate share of catch value. I'd imagine there's changes behind the scenes, even with a higher percentage of the quota going to more northerly states where those monies will still end up in NC commercial coffers. Sounds like a way to reduce operating costs to offset quota cuts. Why depart or offload all the way in NC when you can depart and offload in NJ or NY saving substantial amounts in gas.

Pretty sure that's how offloading works and how state's quota gets impacted but again I guarantee Batsavage will not take a 70% reduction in quota when other states are taking a 42% reduction.

Either way, a 42% cut in commercial quota or 6.4 million lb. reduction is long overdue and proves management knows where the problem is but waits longer than they should to address those problems. If you need to make these kind of cuts in a fishery, that can only mean the fishery is and has been totally mismanaged.

[Andycw]

The 2024 regs in NY are 18 1/2” and 4 fish and NJ’s are 18” and 3 fish. How does that work let alone, make sense?

Thanks, Andy

[Gerry Zagorski]

The 2024 regs in NY are 18 1/2” and 4 fish and NJ’s are 18” and 3 fish. How does that work let alone, make sense?

Thanks, Andy

Their size minimum is larger than ours so they get an additional fish.

[Broad Bill]

Their size minimum is larger than ours so they get an additional fish.

You're correct but it shows how out of control these models are and the assumptions behind them. NY, especially eastern NY / Montauk, holds on average larger fish but that's not how these models supposedly work. Having a larger size minimum means potentially less fish retained to your point but it also means many more smaller fish will die from discard mortality in the process of harvesting larger specimens. For argument sake, let NJ go to 20" and we should be allowed to retain 6 fish a day which will benefit some and hurt most but the season or bag limit should be increased substantially. And that's before consideration is given to gender issues relative to harvesting larger fish.

[dales529]

Another reason:
Since NY and NJ are no longer regionalized with good reason NY can select the best option for their state passed down from ASMFC and MAMFC as we did here in NJ.
This is what people wanted states choosing their own regulations. I agree on fish not so much on other issues but thats a whole other issue not for here.

[hartattack]

The 2024 regs in NY are 18 1/2” and 4 fish and NJ’s are 18” and 3 fish. How does that work let alone, make sense?
A
Thanks, Andy

Those are 2023 NY regs. The 2024, 2025 NY options are listed below. NY is also compelled to have a 28% fluke recreational decrease like all Atlantic states.
Also the difference in NY/NJ fluke bag limits began in 2019 when NJ was penalized 1 fluke when we went out of compliance with ASFMC guidelines.....



The NY options for 2024-2025 recreational summer flounder, that will achieve the required 28% reduction are:​

Possession and Size Limit Open Season
Option 1 3 fish at 19 inches May 1 - Sept. 8
Option 2 3 fish at 19 inches May 5 - Sept. 14
Option 3 3 fish at 19 inches May 17 - Sept. 20
Option 4 3 fish at 19 inches May 1 - July 24
and
Aug. 4 - Oct. 9
Option 5 4 fish at 19.5 inches April 1 - Oct. 31
Option 6 3 fish at 18.5 inches June 12 - Aug. 28

[frugalfisherman]

19 inches in Raritan Bay is a lot tougher than 19 inches in Montauk.

[reelfitter]

We can all sit here and throw statistics,models, charts,data,etc ect etc. The real problem is the commercial sector. You cannot sweep the Ocean floor with trawl nets and expect anything to recover. I seen it for years in the Chesapeake with the Blue Crabs. Once the commercial guy figured out he could dredge Crabs from the mud in the “dormant” season, they wiped em out. The Crabs never got a break. Until the commercial guys are regulated better, your pissing in the wind.