Petition to stop new MCR time restrictions

[Chrisper4694]

Guys, here is the link to the petition to stop the new Merrill creek res. Time restrictions. Our license fees 100% built that fishery from scratch through whatever agreement was made when the reservoir was built and restricting our time of use to 3-4 hours before sundown is totally unacceptable! Please sign and share. We are also currently pursuing other avenues to fight this as well.

https://www.change.org/p/extend-hours-at-merrill-creek-reservoir?signed=true

[Mikey topaz]

Signed

[FASTEDDIE29]

Signed of course!

[thmyorke1]

signed, do we have representation at the upcoming Harmony meeting?

[Jigman13]

Signed and sent to 5 friends

[muskynut]

Signed....no one seems to care about the fishermen OR the opportune times the fishing is the best...blame is put on the fishermen....they are the ones messing things up, throwing garbage all over, etc. That is the furthest thing from the truth....it's the fishermen who are the true environmentalists....caring about nature, etc. Fishermen don't leave any footprint when they leave... Unfortunately many members of the other user groups (not all) but the ignorant ones that picnic, cause disturbances, etc. are the problem. Those are the ones that leave garbage, a mess, etc. Same on Greenwood.....the anglers are not the problem....the problem comes from other recreational user groups in their speed boats, etc. Find all kinds of garbage floating on the lake....KNOW it is not from the fishermen. The groups that rent dock space, (not all I emphasize)....are the problem. Those that have a little too much to drink and then get into a boat are the problem... Some don't even speak English and are oblivious to rules, regulations, etc. This is why marine police are needed and are often called out.....NOT BECAUSE OF THE FISHERMEN.

I had a marina owner tell me to my face, " I could care less about you fishermen".... I kid you not.... they don't make enough $$$ from the fishermen....they do make lots of money through slip rentals, and sales of wave runners and pontoon boats. In fact if you look at the marina slips on Greenwood now....it's all pontoon boats!!! Many owned by customers from the City, etc. I haven't seen a single fishing boat in a slip over the past couple of years.

But I diverge, I hope your initial efforts pay off in the long run and you get what you want. Be forewarned though...be ready for a slow tedious process....and don't relent....hang in there and keep the issue on the main burner.

UFANJ :):):)

[Chrisper4694]

signed, do we have representation at the upcoming Harmony meeting?

I will be joining the band of angry kayakers at the harmony township meeting on tuesday night. hopefully i will be joined by some more anglers.

[Ken Lyons]

The reservoir is owned by a consortium of electric companies. The only real leverage you have, and I am on your side 100%, is with the public utility commission. It’s private property and they can do whatever they want.

[DanH]

Signed !

[Pondhopper8]

Signed

[Wilson]

I will be joining the band of angry kayakers at the harmony township meeting on tuesday night. hopefully i will be joined by some more anglers.

I was out of town that day otherwise I would of attended.
Did you go?

[Chrisper4694]

I was out of town that day otherwise I would of attended.
Did you go?

yes. there weren't too many anglers there but i made sure the mayors office and commissioners understood how anyone who purchased a fishing license in the past few decades paid for that fishery and deserves the right to fish it based on the original hours when the agreement was made to stock it. and also the hit that local commerce will take when people stop going there due to this. they seemed to be genuinely concerned with trying to stop this.

[NJSquatch]

I attended the Fish & Game Council meeting virtually yesterday. Lisa Barno confirmed that there is nothing the state can do about access but F&W met with MCR and expressed their disappointment with the time change.

She indicated the reason for the time change is due to MCR's limited security resources and because people would not respect the sundown closing time.

I made a pubic comment echoing Chris's comment about the fishery being built with public monies and that the state should not be stocking private lakes for which they do not have any input or control over public access.

[Wilson]

yes. there weren't too many anglers there but i made sure the mayors office and commissioners understood how anyone who purchased a fishing license in the past few decades paid for that fishery and deserves the right to fish it based on the original hours when the agreement was made to stock it. and also the hit that local commerce will take when people stop going there due to this. they seemed to be genuinely concerned with trying to stop this.

Thanks for the update. I appreciate your due diligence.

[Wilson]

I attended the Fish & Game Council meeting virtually yesterday. Lisa Barno confirmed that there is nothing the state can do about access but F&W met with MCR and expressed their disappointment with the time change.

She indicated the reason for the time change is due to MCR's limited security resources and because people would not respect the sundown closing time.

Respect the sundown closing?? WTF, so if they close earlier that would make people respect it more?
I don't know about anybody else but I don't want to get locked in at sunset or any other time.

What security are they they referring to?
I have fished there dozens of times from shore and boat.
There's been no one at the ramp shack for a couple of years.
You might see a work truck driving around but that's it.

I call BS

[NJSquatch]

Respect the sundown closing?? WTF, so if they close earlier that would make people respect it more?
I don't know about anybody else but I don't want to get locked in at sunset or any other time.

What security are they they referring to?
I have fished there dozens of times from shore and boat.
There's been no one at the ramp shack for a couple of years.
You might see a work truck driving around but that's it.

I call BS

It is all BS! MCR has no interest in allowing the public to access the property. This is all leading to a complete closure.

[Broad Bill]

Would suspect this is all about liability exposure and yes eventually like too many other places MCR will be closed for some innocuous reason. Enjoy it while it lasts.

People weren't respecting the sundown closure.....really. Lock the gates and fine them each $1,000 per incident when the phantom security guards have to come to let them out. Problem solved.

This is going to not end well, similar to when access rights to the Delaware were taken away on River Road in Phillipsburg because the train company didn't want anyone trespassing on their property. Their property! You have one of the most majestic rivers in the state if not the country that should rightfully be accessible to the public and you have one corporation that occasionally uses the tracks and miraculously has the ability to deny those access points to anyone else who enjoys the great outdoors.

This is all about politicians/corporations/lawyers making decisions that are in the best interest of their personal agendas and not in the best interest of the public who need these areas to enjoy nature and combat mental illness that everyone agrees is so much needed these days post COVID. What better way is there to enjoy life than to be out on the water, fishing with family and friends, a nice hike in a park and getting out of the concrete world and spending a day simply enjoying nature that this beautiful impoundment affords us. All these important points aren't necessarily lost in making decisions like this for MCR, they're completely ignored by the bureaucrats making them.

[Capt. Lou]

Signed !

[Ken Lyons]

Once again people this is private property. We have no more right to go there or your back yards. Appealing will very likely be more successful than demanding. The public utility commissions of both NJ and PA would be where I think the most help would come. My opinion. Fingers crossed.

[hammer4reel]

Once again people this is private property. We have no more right to go there or your back yards. Appealing will very likely be more successful than demanding. The public utility commissions of both NJ and PA would be where I think the most help would come. My opinion. Fingers crossed.

They don’t let private owners build a reservoir for their use . Tap it out of the Delaware river without granting some type of access in the original agreements

More than likely those originally involved knowing where that agreement was specified have passed on , so now they are trying to change it.

I also doubt FG would have invested the time and money into all the fish stocking that went on during the build and after .

They put thousands of bass in there before the reservoir was even filled to capacity. .

..

[Broad Bill]

Once again people this is private property. We have no more right to go there or your back yards. Appealing will very likely be more successful than demanding. The public utility commissions of both NJ and PA would be where I think the most help would come. My opinion. Fingers crossed.

Appealing and demanding will have exactly the same results which is no results. Hammer4reel is spot on, the only way to counter this is through legal means and only then if there was language in the original agreement that discussed recreational rights being grandfathered to the general public. And even if that language does exist in the original documents, all the consortium of utility companies needs to do is say this is a national security measure to secure hydro electricity and/or power plants and they could just as easily entirely shut the impoundment down to recreational use.

[Ken Lyons]

Which is why appealing rather than demanding might have a better chance. There could be, a public relations benefit and they all are subject to the “good will,” of the regulators. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a lot of leverage for us here.

[Broad Bill]

Ken if this involved a goodwill response to a public uproar to the MCR Commission to protect profits like what Anheuser Busch is going through right now, I'd agree with you. This decision has already been made by the Merrill Creek Owners group, their Board and attorneys. Demands, I agree, won't do a thing, the point of my previous post is in this situation appeals won't either. Decisions have already been made, conglomerates like these don't reverse decisions because of public pushback unless there's severe economic consequences which in this case there's not. I'm sure they expected it and factored it into their decision well before the decision was announced

Only chance here is if an earlier closure and more restrictive access rights represents a violation to the terms of the initial agreement or any subsequent modifications. I'm sure that was checked as well but it's another angle and in my opinion the only possibility of this decision being reversed.

In today's world, limiting public access, liability exposure, security and profits for the benefit of the entitled few far outweighs the intrinsic benefits of everyone else. Just look at how long the issue of public launch access at GWL has been going on..

[reason162]

Appealing and demanding will have exactly the same results which is no results. Hammer4reel is spot on, the only way to counter this is through legal means and only then if there was language in the original agreement that discussed recreational rights being grandfathered to the general public. And even if that language does exist in the original documents, all the consortium of utility companies needs to do is say this is a national security measure to secure hydro electricity and/or power plants and they could just as easily entirely shut the impoundment down to recreational use.

I think you're spot on, and this might be an unpopular opinion but I've witnessed the nonsense going on at that ramp every other trip there during the good weather months - people staying out past the sundown ramp closure, people showing up with prohibited watercrafts and getting into heated arguments with staff, people taking a dip when swimming is prohibited, walking out of the parking lot with waders on when wading is prohibited, forcing staff to stay past their closing time and generally being dickheads. Ditto for the tournament boats making noise at 4:30am next to residents (whose complaints MC actually has to care about), and I completely understand the owners' decision to restrict hours. In fact if I were an employee who had to deal with that BS I would say the owners are being good bosses in that regard.

I don't see any evidence that this is some kind nefarious first step to complete closure, bc in fact they can decide to close it tomorrow if they choose, and there's nothing any of us can do to stop it. Remember they shut down during the first few months of covid and afaik they didn't need to consult the public to do that. Instead I take what they say at face value, bc I've seen it first hand countless times over the past few years.

It's always the few bad apples ruining things for the rest of us, and if that kind of boorish behavior continues they will shut it down for good and no amount of protesting and petition signing will make a difference.

[Broad Bill]

Well said. We've all seen too many public places privatized and areas closed due to a handful or more of idiots who don't think twice about ruining it for everyone else.

If I were the Warren County Commission, I'd consider approaching MCR ownership group with the following. Turn a negative into a positive. If the security concerns they're discussing involve inappropriate or unauthorized use of the MCR facilities as opposed to something more sinister like terrorism, address the cause of the problem as opposed to the residual consequences.

Impose a $1,000 fine to any person who violates protocols. That would include any regulation that is posted and not complied with including getting back to the launch site late, littering, use of waders, swimming or bass boats using their motors at 4:30 a.m. etc. If necessary, confiscate fishing equipment and boats. I'd guarantee any person fined once won't violate regulations a second time.

I'd also recommend having everyone who uses the facility be provided a number to report violations. Aside from posting that information, pass out cards at the gate which has a number to call in the event violations are witnessed. Let the 95% of the people who care about preserving and enjoying the beauty of the impoundment help ownership maintain the safety protocols and regulations in place as opposed to allowing the 5% minority who don't give a shit dictate policy decisions and ruin it for everyone else.

If MCR adopted these regulations, three things will happen. First, you immediately empower the recreational community and align their interests with those of MCR ownership. Second, you address the current problem by penalizing the violators while raising significant amounts of revenue to be used for additional enforcement or in any way deemed beneficial to promote and preserve the natural beauty of MCR for all the people who need that resource today more than ever. Third, you reward the people who care about MCR as opposed to penalizing them for the actions of those who don't. And in the process you promote custodianship to protect and preserve the future of this much needed resource.

Problem solved without restricting access to all the people who need this impoundment and depend on it to help deal with life's challenges.

[thmyorke1]

I think you're spot on, and this might be an unpopular opinion but I've ...

I dont get why we are solutioning and brainstorming why they are in the right for cutting hours.
If the main issue is people overstaying over hours then reducing the hours is surely going to have more of those occurrences lol.
All those other issues you list are pathetic excuses,
wading? swimming? ... oh no...
the staff on site right at the launch was already handling those "issues" well anyways

Residents?
ah yea surely the 5 houses on Merril Creek Road surely are DYING to the noise of traffic as they are 100+ feet away from the road with huge ass lawns.

Surely hope no one is just biassed and just likes the idea of restricting access to their favorite lake so it gets less pressure. :rolleyes:

[acabtp]

I dont get why we are solutioning and brainstorming why they are in the right for cutting hours.
If the main issue is people overstaying over hours then reducing the hours is surely going to have more of those occurrences lol.
All those other issues you list are pathetic excuses,
wading? swimming? ... oh no...
the staff on site right at the launch was already handling those "issues" well anyways

Residents?
ah yea surely the 5 houses on Merril Creek Road surely are DYING to the noise of traffic as they are 100+ feet away from the road with huge ass lawns.

Surely hope no one is just biassed and just likes the idea of restricting access to their favorite lake so it gets less pressure. :rolleyes:
Because it is super entitled thinking that we are in the right for telling private property owners what to do with their land. Just discontinue stocking and move on. Or eminent domain the reservoir, have the state compensate the utility, and then run it as a public resource. But telling private property owners what they should do with their land... that's not going to help anything.

[thmyorke1]

"Just discontinue stocking and move on. Or eminent domain the reservoir, have the state compensate the utility, and then run it as a public resource"

both are valid, I and hopefully others just wish it doesnt need to come down to that and they can just keep the hours as it was.
Dare anyone speak up against another loss of access.
It's not evil to say "this is stupid" even when someone has the legal right to do it.

[reason162]

I dont get why we are solutioning and brainstorming why they are in the right for cutting hours.
If the main issue is people overstaying over hours then reducing the hours is surely going to have more of those occurrences lol.
All those other issues you list are pathetic excuses,
wading? swimming? ... oh no...
the staff on site right at the launch was already handling those "issues" well anyways

Residents?
ah yea surely the 5 houses on Merril Creek Road surely are DYING to the noise of traffic as they are 100+ feet away from the road with huge ass lawns.

Surely hope no one is just biassed and just likes the idea of restricting access to their favorite lake so it gets less pressure. :rolleyes:

It comes down to gaming out the reality of the situation - if the MC owners are legally beholden to the public in some way, then our efforts to pressure them into reversing their decision makes sense. If they are not - and I see no evidence that they are - then forcing them to deal with the fallout could backfire, esp if anyone feels entitled enough to express some of the sentiments I've read in this and other threads in person, at the ramp or the office.

Broad Bill's solutions seem logical if we take MCR owners' words at face value. If there is no legal recourse to stop the new hours, it's in everyone's interest to police the existing rules, bc there will be no legal recourse to prevent them shutting the whole thing down permanently.

As for your snarky last paragraph - I'll repeat myself here - if the new hours reduce or eliminate tournaments, I'll see that as a silver lining. If that makes me biased, I don't really care.

[thmyorke1]

true, right thats good. last thing i wanted to hear, especially on this site, were excuses favoring why they SHOULD be restricting the hours. Sorry if I came off snarky. I'm biased against tournaments too I guess though LOL :D

[Broad Bill]

Off topic but I'm going to say it anyway which I'm sure will cause debate. Never made sense to me running bass tournaments when largemouth and smallmouth bass are spawning. Why schedule tournaments when fish are at their most vulnerable and who knows how many eggs are destroyed by pulling fish off their beds allowing panfish to eat the eggs or disrupting the spawning process. The obvious answer is that's when big females are most vulnerable but it's for that very same reason tournaments should never be run during the spawn in my opinion. And if the male is pulled off the bed after the female drops its eggs, the entire nest will be destroyed which makes no sense whatsoever.

I witnessed something the other day I've never witnessed before. I watched from a distance a smallmouth guarding a nest where eggs had obviously been dropped. Sunnies and bluegills were lined up attacking the nest and the small mouth was fending them off. About 10 minutes into watching this, a largemouth bass actually joined the smallmouth and the two of them worked side by side chasing panfish from the nest. Never saw that before and it was a pretty amazing sight to see. I don't know if in this particular lake the largemouths and smallies were forming a hybrid species or if it was just an anomaly of two different male species guarding the nest. Either way, it was a sight to see. Nature at its finest, pretty cool.

[thmyorke1]

thats really cool to see, some stuff in nature is amazing to witness no mater how small. But also yes that should be it's own thread. Id love for a tournament discussion thread to start hehe :D