Fluke quota

[hammer4reel]

Just heard that NJ is increasing commercial landings to 7000 a week .
And North Carolina is going to unlimited poundage .

So much for BS slot fish saving the fishery .

[hammer4reel]

Resolution of pics on this site is horrible . To see new quota letter I posted .
Click here , scroll down to summer flounder season 5 and click on it .

https://dep.nj.gov/njfw/fishing/marine/commercial-quotas-trip-limits-and-notices/

[JMo1986]

This figures. Rec guys are ruining the fisheries though. I heard those NC draggers are cleaning up Nantucket for us too.

[cfish71]

I was in Nags Head NC in early August. Went to Englehart to purchase shrimp. The owner stated that their boats were going all the way to Mass to get fluke and sea bass. Recreational fluke fishing in NC has been closed for a few years.

[JMo1986]

Considering the sheer magnitude of that commercial fishery in Narragansett it’s pretty amazing we catch anything. Gotta make a living though and there are much worse ways. Not trying to pile on the commercial guys but I think rod and reel should be the way everyone catches. Lax regs are fine if you gotta earn it. Pulling a giant net and comparing that to Joe Schmoe on his whaler ain’t a fair fight.

[BigRock44]

Thanks for posting this Dan. Another slap in the face for the rec guys who follow the rules, write letters, carefully release fish, etc. to try to conserve so that our kids can enjoy this fishery one day. Intelligent management errs on the side of prudence, and I have no problem making sacrifices to protect future stocks. This jump in commercial poundage sure won't help. I remember how plentiful weakfish and winter flounder once were in Jersey waters...

[hammer4reel]

So talking to some commercial friends .
The reason poundage went up is there are very few guys here netting fluke .

So they are no where close to where the state wants landings to be .
They are making more money squid fishing so that’s what most are doing .

He did tell me if they don’t finish with their quota it would be taken away , which also hurts us as the break down is 60/40.

He said another reason they aren’t fluking is restaurant demand is no where near precovid .
So the $$$ isn’t there .

Said reason NC will go to unlimited is so the larger boats get in the game .
But they will be hitting our stokes here as most landings are coming from Nj through Massachusetts.

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[Gerry Zagorski]

This is not a quota increase. The Commercials did not fill their limits in the prior seasons 1-4 and the underages got rolled into season 5 in an attempt to allow them to fill their annual quotas. That does not mean their annual quotas got increased, it 's still the same. What it means is they've been given an opportunity to catch what they were allocated this year.

[reason162]

The owner stated that their boats were going all the way to Mass to get fluke and sea bass. Recreational fluke fishing in NC has been closed for a few years.

They are going to Mass because both the fluke and seabass biomass has shifted northwards. The main concentration of both species were off the coast of NC when the commercial quotas were written decades ago.

[1captainron]

This is not a quota increase. The Commercials did not fill their limits in the prior seasons 1-4 and the underages got rolled into season 5 in an attempt to allow them to fill their annual quotas. That does not mean their annual quotas got increased, it 's still the same. What it means is they've been given an opportunity to catch what they were allocated this year.

So, when they tell us we over-fished again this year (Bullshit) they don't have to allocate any underage back to us next year.......I get it now!!

[hammer4reel]

This is not a quota increase. The Commercials did not fill their limits in the prior seasons 1-4 and the underages got rolled into season 5 in an attempt to allow them to fill their annual quotas. That does not mean their annual quotas got increased, it 's still the same. What it means is they've been given an opportunity to catch what they were allocated this year.

That’s how they play it , as they get an actual yearly quota .
DIFFERENCE is it’s spread out through the year so they are taking fish from different areas .
NOW they will be targeting larger amounts of fluke , here close where they are competing against recreational fisherman .
The NORM is their landings were 2500a week during our fishing season .

Increasing the weekly allows the bigger boats to get in the game . As when it’s 2500 a week it’s not cost effective for them .

Heard sea bass is also going to 30000 pounds for them as they haven’t met that quota either .
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[Gerry Zagorski]

So, when they tell us we over-fished again this year (Bullshit) they don't have to allocated any underage back to us next year.......I get it now!!

We’re stuck with MRIP to figure out what we supposedly caught Ron and who knows what the magical MRIP 8 ball is going to tell us this year, although it did help us last year.

Based on what I’ve been seeing recently, there certainly are a lot fewer people using their boats this year. Gas prices and the heat have kept people home, I know that’s the case with me.

[Rocky]

Posting for a friend who has put more thought and research into this issue than the so-called fishery managers who are failing miserably. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to see the downward trend!


Dan, here’s my take on your post. Gas is one of a commercial fisherman’s largest operating costs, no more evident than this year. Why burn more gas during the summer months when the stock is spread out inshore when you can instead wait until September through November when schools are concentrated migrating offshore, staging offshore in the winter or migrating back inshore in the spring. Those three times of year it’s the cliché “fish in a barrel”. Stock is at its highest concentration and most susceptible to commercial netting. It’s all about maximizing profit and we’d all do the same if we owned a business, commercial fishing or otherwise. I have no problem with that. What we all should have a problem with is the federal or state governments tasked with managing these fisheries making short term decisions without consideration given to the long term consequences of those decisions on the stock.

Here’s what New Jersey really just did. We talk until we’re blue in the face about protecting the spawn from commercial harvest. Well the state just increased that threat significantly. Less quota has been taken to date so put more pressure on the spawn by increasing the percentage of the overall harvest in September through October. Brilliant strategy. Instead of protecting the spawn we pound the stock harder.

Don’t at all agree with the 60/40 argument for two reasons. First. that’s not how NMFS makes the calculation of annual commercial catch (or recreational harvest limit) based on MSA guidelines. Second, it’s my understanding that either sector over fishing quota could result in subsequent year quota reduction, not under fishing. Their argument is counter intuitive and, if I’m wrong, site one year commercials we’re penalized for under-fishing quota in the previous year. Don’t think it’s ever happened. If they’re saying New Jersey’s portion of the overall commercial quota would be at risk of reduction, it might be but this has nothing to do with the 60/40 sector allocation.

The point about demand makes no sense. If demand is down, it’s down. Increasing harvest or supply will accomplish one thing in a down market. Flood the market with more fluke and drive ex-vessel prices lower. It’s exactly what happened in 2020 when the Pandemic hit and summer flounder prices plunged below $1 / lb. So apply more pressure on the spawn so the sector can harvest more of their annual quota at the worst time of year for the stock and drive market prices lower than they currently are in a down market. Another brilliant strategy.

North Carolina makes up between 35% to 40% of the overall commercial harvest. NC’s harvest forever has been almost 100% during the winter months. Unlimited harvest to a state that makes up that percentage of commercial quota when the stock is most vulnerable staging offshore simply adds more pressure on the stock’s future. NC and Maryland destroyed the southern Chesapeake stock so why not let them do the same to the remaining Southern New England and Mid-Atlantic stock.

This change was made for one reason and one reason only. New Jersey and the commercial sector trying to protect their pro-rata allocation of the overall commercial quota. And the decision was clearly made in spite of the impacts on the primary spawn or anything else. Should give us an idea of how decisions are being made in this and every other fishery.

[hammer4reel]

Posting for a friend who has put more thought and research into this issue than the so-called fishery managers who are failing miserably. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to see the downward trend!


Dan, here’s my take on your post. Gas is one of a commercial fisherman’s largest operating costs, no more evident than this year. Why burn more gas during the summer months when the stock is spread out inshore when you can instead wait until September through November when schools are concentrated migrating offshore, staging offshore in the winter or migrating back inshore in the spring. Those three times of year it’s the cliché “fish in a barrel”. Stock is at its highest concentration and most susceptible to commercial netting. It’s all about maximizing profit and we’d all do the same if we owned a business, commercial fishing or otherwise. I have no problem with that. What we all should have a problem with is the federal or state governments tasked with managing these fisheries making short term decisions without consideration given to the long term consequences of those decisions on the stock.

Here’s what New Jersey really just did. We talk until we’re blue in the face about protecting the spawn from commercial harvest. Well the state just increased that threat significantly. Less quota has been taken to date so put more pressure on the spawn by increasing the percentage of the overall harvest in September through October. Brilliant strategy. Instead of protecting the spawn we pound the stock harder.

Don’t at all agree with the 60/40 argument for two reasons. First. that’s not how NMFS makes the calculation of annual commercial catch (or recreational harvest limit) based on MSA guidelines. Second, it’s my understanding that either sector over fishing quota could result in subsequent year quota reduction, not under fishing. Their argument is counter intuitive and, if I’m wrong, site one year commercials we’re penalized for under-fishing quota in the previous year. Don’t think it’s ever happened. If they’re saying New Jersey’s portion of the overall commercial quota would be at risk of reduction, it might be but this has nothing to do with the 60/40 sector allocation.

The point about demand makes no sense. If demand is down, it’s down. Increasing harvest or supply will accomplish one thing in a down market. Flood the market with more fluke and drive ex-vessel prices lower. It’s exactly what happened in 2020 when the Pandemic hit and summer flounder prices plunged below $1 / lb. So apply more pressure on the spawn so the sector can harvest more of their annual quota at the worst time of year for the stock and drive market prices lower than they currently are in a down market. Another brilliant strategy.

North Carolina makes up between 35% to 40% of the overall commercial harvest. NC’s harvest forever has been almost 100% during the winter months. Unlimited harvest to a state that makes up that percentage of commercial quota when the stock is most vulnerable staging offshore simply adds more pressure on the stock’s future. NC and Maryland destroyed the southern Chesapeake stock so why not let them do the same to the remaining Southern New England and Mid-Atlantic stock.

This change was made for one reason and one reason only. New Jersey and the commercial sector trying to protect their pro-rata allocation of the overall commercial quota. And the decision was clearly made in spite of the impacts on the primary spawn or anything else. Should give us an idea of how decisions are being made in this and every other fishery.

ROCKY , While Tom is great at stats and numbers . And has worked diligently to try and get the bean counters to address their own stats.
He has to totally rely on stats that may or may not be accurate ..

The bean counters put more reliability in proven numbers , and actual poundage counts from commercial landings .
Their number is actual .
Our MRIP numbers are fantasy land .

The reason they use the commercials as a baseline is If numbers are hit they feel the resource had enough AVAILABLE. If numbers aren’t hit they need to address why . (They don’t want to hear lack of actual netting for them )

If landings don’t hit the numbers they have been told their quotes will be cut back.
Both here and NC .
The smaller guys holding these permits are getting called daily .
But they dint want to flood the market as price goes down .
They can get 4-5 a live pound .
When the quota goes up the larger boats get involved , and will bring the price down to 1.45.
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As far as fishing in a barrel .
Local boats don’t waste time and gas fishing locally . Fish aren’t spread out .
Most nights they are done in four or five hours .
Less guys needed on the boats .
Less gear needed on the boats and considerable time difference .

Off shore requires days , more gear , more help etc . More wear and tear It’s not more profitable

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Commercial guys I know are on the water 275-300 days a year . For 40 plus years
.Their knowledge of the fisheries , the movements and tracks of these fish
FAR outweigh the unproven info and guesses about the fishery .

Guessing that the eastward movement of fish thsts been happening for decades is just that our stocks were overfished and the eastward ones haven’t is not accurate according to those making their living daily on the water .

Both bait and fish of all species have def shifted . And will continue to do so .
Their logs for decades show it .
They didn’t just start fishing east recently . They have been fishing those areas for decades already also .
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According to them the main body of fish is well east of us . And spreading further north each year .
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[Rocky]

Both bait and fish of all species have def shifted . And will continue to do so .
Their logs for decades show it .
They didn’t just start fishing east recently . They have been fishing those areas for decades already also .
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According to them the main body of fish is well east of us . And spreading further north each year .
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With the argument of the main body of fish shifting and are healthy, why the hell did they do the slot fish this year? From your logic no matter what we do it will not change anything and the main body of fish will continue to migrate North correct?

[JMo1986]

Perhaps the once southern biomass is now extinct and now they are all just targeting different fish (northern biomass)? How does this factoid get established? Tagging, tracking, etc? Genuinely curious. NC specifically has 3 different species of flounder.

Maybe they are all hanging with Santa at the North Pole, I don't have much data to support either way, but I do know that humans are the most destructive force on the planet.

I will catch and release for 5 years if it means I can keep catching fish the next 50. It just seems like someone will kill them all no matter what.

[hammer4reel]

Perhaps the once southern biomass is now extinct and now they are all just targeting different fish (northern biomass)? How does this factoid get established? Tagging, tracking, etc? Genuinely curious. NC specifically has 3 different species of flounder.

Maybe they are all hanging with Santa at the North Pole, I don't have much data to support either way, but I do know that humans are the most destructive force on the planet.

I will catch and release for 5 years if it means I can keep catching fish the next 50. It just seems like someone will kill them all no matter what.


Sadly all too true .
Sucks that we have to share all the shore treasures with the rest of the states .

All other states having , elk , moose , antelope etc get to keep it all unless you pay to play there
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Shore based states should get that same control . Wanna eat our fish come and pay to catch it .
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[hammer4reel]

With the argument of the main body of fish shifting and are healthy, why the hell did they do the slot fish this year? From your logic no matter what we do it will not change anything and the main body of fish will continue to migrate North correct?

You got the slot fish stuck up you A$$ , so others could get the longer season they wanted.

Betting we pay dearly for those 30 extra days where they claim we overfished

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[dales529]

You got the slot fish stuck up you A$$ , so others could get the longer season they wanted.

Betting we pay dearly for those 30 extra days where they claim we overfished

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Dan
Others got the longer season 24 days from Option 3 / 126 days to option 5 /150 days because they were there in person or got a say on the webinar where most north jersey guys assumed it would be 3 @ 17.5 and 126 days and didn't attend the meeting in person or virtually. The council is working on not relaying a preferred option until the actual meeting although tons of people ask for it.

As I stated before 2 open seats on the council for you to apply!

First wave 2 months data is in for May and June and shows we didn't meet harvest/ landings projections as it should although the numbers from 2021 to 2022 only show a small difference which of course we question especially up north.

Cant argue that waves 3-5 wont show a different picture as fluking picked up in august but at least so far the wave data is showing less catch than projected.

[Gerry Zagorski]

You got the slot fish stuck up you A$$ , so others could get the longer season they wanted.

Betting we pay dearly for those 30 extra days where they claim we overfished

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Woah!! Weren't we all behind the data that suggested that larger size limits were forcing us to take the larger female breeding population that sustains the fishery over time?

Were we not in favor of a slot which allows us to keep something we could have not kept before and not be forced to target the the larger fish?

As far as I'm concerned, these regulations were a step in that direction and although the final regulations were narrower on the 2 slots than I'd like, it did not target the female breeders. If you want it otherwise speak up.

My or your personal preferences don't matter. What I want is what works for most of us and if you don't speak up in these meetings, how do they know what most of us want?

At the end of the day, right or wrong, you try, fight and speak up for what you want, or your can sit on the bench and let others control the game.

[hammer4reel]

Woah!! Weren't we all behind the data that suggested that larger size limits were forcing us to take the larger female breeding population that sustains the fishery over time?

Were we not in favor of a slot which allows us to keep something we could have not kept before and not be forced to target the the larger fish?

As far as I'm concerned, these regulations were a step in that direction and although the final regulations were narrower on the 2 slots than I'd like, it did not target the female breeders. If you want it otherwise speak up.

My or your personal preferences don't matter. What I want is what works for most of us and if you don't speak up in these meetings, how do they know what most of us want?

At the end of the day, right or wrong, you try, fight and speak up for what you want, or your can sit on the bench and let others control the game.


Gerry I talked to those involved for HOURS before those meetings , and have talked with directors at FG at great lengths .

What was pulled at the meeting was bullshit .
The preferred option was welcome by 95% of the people before hand at 3 fish at 17 1/2 “
It was changed by 2 people on the council who wanted the longest season , they didn’t give a shit whether it was one fish at 30” as long as they got the 150 day season .
It allowed his boats to possibly fish an extra 30 days each , it had nothing to do with trying to preserve the fishery .
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There is no way everyone who wanted to join the meeting or try to talk to get to .
Meeting allows 1000 people , and NO WAY even 200 would get to speak .
Many who tried were not called on .

Over 2000 signatures the following night IMO should have stopped the vote from being signed off on .

Take 5 minutes and ask how many guys slot fish were between 17-17 1/2 and what was between 17 1/2 -17.99 you will find there were very few 17” . And about 75% were 17 3/4”
Yet we gave up 66% of our catch of fish from 18” to 30’” to get that lower 1/2” size .

And while everyone wants to think the fish are mostly males under 18” that’s crap too.
All the slot fish we have caught for the last month are full of eggs .
While their is hope there are males caught there is no guarantee.

Wanna preserve a fishery you don’t have a 150 day season , where many guys are throwing crazy numbers of fish back .

You lower the size limit , shorten the amount of access days . Reduce the mortality as much as you can .

Lengthening the season , hand cuffing the fisherman to a small slot size , did everything but that .

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[Rocky]

Another's viewpoint.

“Guessing that the eastward movement of fish that’s been happening for decades is just that our stocks were overfished and the eastward ones haven’t been is not accurate according to those making their living daily on the water.”

Remember they said the same thing about whiting, cod and winter flounder stocks, geographic expansion versus stock declines. We know how those stories ended. Ever hear the terms “fox in the henhouse” or “conflict of interest”? If you made a dollar every time a commercial operator admitted a stock they were targeting was in decline, you’d maybe have enough to buy a cup of coffee, maybe.

The stock based on your view and your commercial connections is healthy, just moving north and east. We’ll never see NMFS or the commercial sector admit their regulations or exploitation of a stock is causing a stock’s decline. Geographic “expansion” is the go to smoking gun even when the stock assessment itself showed a 40% decline in the stock from 2010 through 2017 commensurate with the practice of targeting the breeding population, harvesting older age classes, disrupting the efficacy of the spawn, killing millions of juvenile fish annually and materially reducing annual recruitment.

While I agree the data is not perfect and never will be, at some point common sense needs to be applied. I don’t believe counting on the commercial sector to do stock assessments is advisable or a common sense approach. No more advisable or sensible than the change in management philosophy in this fishery from harvesting immature younger age classes and protecting the breeding population (resulting in historic growth in the stock) to killing younger age classes in the process of harvesting exclusively the breeding population. I don’t believe that philosophy works in this fishery or any fishery and is the root cause for the decline in the stock and ridiculous regulations the recreational sector has been saddled with.