No Kill Trout Stretches

[Billfish715]

I know I should have gone to the trout meeting with my concerns but family matters kept me close to home. The more I read through the current fishing digest, the more I wonder about why we, as trout fishermen, are being overly regulated. It's been going on for a long time and some things need to be questioned and addressed. One thing that I'd like to have answered involves the stocking of trout in the two "no kill" stretches in the Big Flatbrook and the Ken Lockwood Gorge. Also included in the discussion can be the two year round TCA's. Why are trout being stocked on a weekly schedule in those places when all of the trout must be released when caught? Why are more trout going in when no trout are coming out? Isn't that a waste of money and fish? Can't those fish be released elsewhere? At that rate, the guys who fish in the Lake Solitude Club won't have to stock any trout of their own. There will be plenty of the overflow trout from the Gorge swimming down to their property. There is no need to restock the no kill stretches every week unless fishermen are allowed to take trout out.

What is the reasoning behind stocking those stretches every week? There has to be some politics or special interest groups at work here. Can anyone share the Division's mission statement about its trout stocking program with us?

[thmyorke1]

You did not miss the trout meeting, they cancelled it and did not reschedule.

From my understanding klg is sort of a super-river in the eyes of the state. When you think of nj trout fishing, you think if the klg and that's exactly what the state wants, as the gorge is not only a fishing spot but a tourist attraction.

With this idea, that means the state is going to stock it over a reasonable capacity so that it maintains that "#1 trout fishing spot in Nj" attribute.

Klg is stocked heavily because the state wants to impress their guest anglers.

In my perspective, returning back to your previous thread, it would be a great wild trout stream stretch but i feel like the stockings actually have driven out the wild population there, directly by competition or indirectly by all the predatory birds that recognize the gorge.

Imo if somewhere is no kill, then it should be no stock.

[Billfish715]

The general trout public has to continue to ask questions of the Fish and Game Council members. They are the ones who vote on any regulation changes or omissions. So, if any of the council members are lurking on this board, please answer the concerns of those in the general trout fishing public. The special interest groups ( especially the salmonidically correct ) might be well funded and vocal, but they pay the same license fees as an average fisherman; and, there are more average fisherman than those in the special groups. If I want to take my five year old son trout fishing in the Ken Lockwood Gorge; and I want him to use a worm and a bobber; why am I not allowed to do it? My license fee paid for those trout as much as someone else's. If you want to issue a usage fee for no kill waters, by all means do so. With that I have no problem. If you want exclusivity with regulations that suit you, then pay for it.......exclusively. Maybe then we'll see just how important and cost effective regulating those stretches will be. Just an idea.........or is it?

So, what is the mission statement? Why are trout stocked on a weekly basis in the no kill stretches and the year round TCA's ( Which are basically no kill waters.)? How much more productive will those beats be to natural brown and brook trout reproduction if left unstocked? It seems that a major goal is to restore natural trout production in NJ waters. How, then, is stocking ( especially rainbow trout ) helping in that goal?

[thmyorke1]

It seems that a major goal is to restore natural trout production in NJ waters. How, then, is stocking ( especially rainbow trout ) helping in that goal?

That is a goal, but another goal is to give good fishing opportunities to the high demand of anglers in NJ, which is done by stocking waters.

If there were no trout stockings, then the fishing pressure on wild trout would be too high. No matter the regulations. Waters that wouldnt normally hold wild trout get stocked trout, and fishing pressure is directed away.

The state avoids stocking trout where there are wild trout populations. We just saw an extension on the South Branch and a few other waters like Rockaway Creek S/B, where they are no longer stocking trout so that their wild populations can increase.

I believe there can be plenty more extensions to the WTS program. But progress is being made.

[Chrisper4694]

honestly, in short, the vast regulations are super over complicated...I, for one, am not doing 10 minutes of research every time i want to fish a new stream in NJ to try to figure out the rules...

If the sign where i go fishing doesn't have the rules on it, then i'm fishing as per usual, simple as that.

[Drossi]

There are plenty of other good or better places to fish for trout in NJ besides KLG or the precious (:rolleyes:) TCA's. Places that fall under general regulations (gasp!). Stop whining over a few places that are stocked regularly that fall under special regs. Besides they are useful in that they keep the a-holes concentrated in easily avoided areas, leaving the rest of the waters relatively uncrowded.

[Super]

2% of NJ's stocked rivers have special regulations. Don't know why everyone makes such a big deal about it.

[Drossi]

2% of NJ's stocked rivers have special regulations. Don't know why everyone makes such a big deal about it.

Couldn't agree more. If I fish one of them more than 2 times a season that's a lot. And I pretty much fly fish every time out, yet I can find better fishing without crowds elsewhere. I never did understand why everyone gets so hung up on KLG, Pequest, Pt Mtn, or Flatbrook TCA's. There are equally pretty places to fish besides them with as good fish populations and no restrictions (or large populations of dbags).

Even back in the day when I fished bait and KLG had that couple of week open period for all tackle, I never went near it. Too many jerkoffs in there.

[AndyS]

The 2.5 mile KLG only gets 3000 trout in the spring and heap more in the fall.
I asked a few TU groups why so many fish in a NO KILL section, they replied by saying "Oh, we have birds of prey eating all the fish"

[thmyorke1]

The 2.5 mile KLG only gets 3000 trout in the spring and heap more in the fall.
I asked a few TU groups why so many fish in a NO KILL section, they replied by saying "Oh, we have birds of prey eating all the fish"

No doubt KLG has a lot of birds.

But arent there so many birds because it's filled to the brim?

There's a point where there's too much trout. Where it starts actually harming the fishery rather than make it better. Consequences of overpopulation; disease spreads easier, less food to go around, etc, and in this example a bigger presence of predators.

[Billfish715]

The biggest reason why so many trout are stocked into the TCA's and No-Kills is simple, in my opinion. It's where they were always stocked and no one was ever challenged about the logic of stocking more and more trout into rivers where no trout are taken out. So why, Fish and Game Council members, are you allowing so many trout to be stocked on top of each other in places where they will never be harvested? Stop the weekly trout stocking in those streams.

Besides that issue, I'm being told that even though I pay the same for my license as anyone else, I am not privileged enough to fish in those special areas because I don't fish like the fishermen who fish there. What do the Fish and Game Council members have against the way I fish? Again, if the council members want to protect any percentage of New Jersey's trout streams for a select group of anglers and prohibit the rest of us from fishing there because we are different, they should resign immediately. Or, another option would be to charge a user fee or special license to fish there.

This discussion can go on and on, but the average fishermen need to speak up loudly for change before we are regulated to the point where no one fishes anymore.

[FASTEDDIE29]

The biggest reason why so many trout are stocked into the TCA's and No-Kills is simple, in my opinion. It's where they were always stocked and no one was ever challenged about the logic of stocking more and more trout into rivers where no trout are taken out. So why, Fish and Game Council members, are you allowing so many trout to be stocked on top of each other in places where they will never be harvested? Stop the weekly trout stocking in those streams.

Besides that issue, I'm being told that even though I pay the same for my license as anyone else, I am not privileged enough to fish in those special areas because I don't fish like the fishermen who fish there. What do the Fish and Game Council members have against the way I fish? Again, if the council members want to protect any percentage of New Jersey's trout streams for a select group of anglers and prohibit the rest of us from fishing there because we are different, they should resign immediately. Or, another option would be to charge a user fee or special license to fish there.

This discussion can go on and on, but the average fishermen need to speak up loudly for change before we are regulated to the point where no one fishes anymore.

The word “segregation” comes to mind when I think about Trout fishing in NJ! Strong word, I know, but suitable I think. Hopefully you’ll get clarity out of this buddy. I’m sure there’s a lot of anglers looking for answers including myself.

Maybe they stock those TCA’s because they know fish simply die or fly over a set of falls. I’m really not sure. I personally haven’t fished a TCA in years. I’ll tell ya though. Once those club fish make there way down stream they’re fair game. Lol!!

[Dave B.]

I can't speak to the KLG but the reason given for the continued regular stockings on the Flatbrook No-Kill stretch is to be able to determine if the reg change is having the desired effect of increasing holdover.
They did several consecutive years of electro-fishing on that stream section prior to the reg change. In order to be able to compare 'apples-to-apples' it makes sense to continue stocking the same numbers and frequency for several years after the reg change while also performing electro-fishing studies each year to determine if the 'No-kill' reg is allowing for an increase in holdover or if the water body had already been stabilizing itself at its carrying capacity before the reg change.
Believe me I questioned what the stocking regimen would be 'if' the reg change were enacted well over a year prior to its passing.

Bear in mind the Flatbrook is a very different situation than the gorge. The KLG had been a year-round TCA with very limited take prior to the change to 'No-kill' whereas the Flatbrook, although being Fly Fishing Only, still allowed for bagging a full limit of fish. Also the Flatbrook FFO section allowed all=tackle angling for the first 9 days of the season except for the Blewitt Tract. Bottom line, a LOT of trout were kept from the Flatbrook prior to the reg change, so it made sense to follow the same stocking regimen for some time afterwards to try to determine what if any positive affects the change produced.

Personally I give them 5 years after the reg change to determine whether or not the change has had any positive affects on the holdover population. This is to allow for the un-controllable variables of weather from year to year. If after that amount of time the study results show little to no viable increase in holdover then I believe the stocking numbers should be gradually reduced each year until electro-fishing and angler observations indicate a clear drop in holdover, then bump it back up a bit and hold the numbers/frequency there.

[Billfish715]

I remember quite emotionally fishing in the Big Flatbrook when I was a youngster. My uncle would take me there on several fishing trips each spring. We fished during the early season before the fly fishing only regulations went into effect and I loved every minute of my time in that wooded wonderland. It was and still is a trout fishing Paradise. I cut my trout fishing teeth while fishing on the exotic Rahway River in Cranford so you can only imagine how I felt when I stepped into the pristinely, magically clear water of the Big Flatbrook. That feeling is being denied to almost any youngster today because of the "study" being conducted. It will be a tragedy to lose a generation of youngsters who will never have the opportunity to experience what I was exposed to when I was little.

It's interesting to note just how cynical I have become since the new regulations have been instituted. I didn't mind foregoing the rest of the trout season on the Flatbrook or the Gorge to the fly fishing guys because I was able to partake in the beauty and charm of fishing there even if it was for a few days. Now, I'm shut out unless I conform.

[Drossi]

You guys whine a lot. Use fly gear and its problem solved. Or use spinners in the TCA. Again problem solved. And using the kid excuse is lame, I could fish a panther Martin at 5 years old, my son was the same. This argument is like me bitching about the state using my license $ for stocking walleye. Since I don't have a boat or access to one I have no way to fish for them.

[baetis]

Dave B:

Any data yet from the Flatbrook electro-shock studies?

[Chrisper4694]

You guys whine a lot. Use fly gear and its problem solved. Or use spinners in the TCA. Again problem solved. And using the kid excuse is lame, I could fish a panther Martin at 5 years old, my son was the same. This argument is like me bitching about the state using my license $ for stocking walleye. Since I don't have a boat or access to one I have no way to fish for them.

this entire issue is because fly fisherman bitched and whined for years at the state meetings, so don't even go there...

the rest of us wondering why we are being over regulated based, not on scientific studies, but the opinions of a few elitists is def not whining in my book.

[Billfish715]

You guys whine a lot. Use fly gear and its problem solved. Or use spinners in the TCA. Again problem solved. And using the kid excuse is lame, I could fish a panther Martin at 5 years old, my son was the same. This argument is like me bitching about the state using my license $ for stocking walleye. Since I don't have a boat or access to one I have no way to fish for them.
It's hardly a whine. It's the same response that would come from a fly fisherman or spinning rod user when the regulations insist that THEY may NOT use that gear wherever they want. I have never objected to a shared use of the restricted areas. Just let me have access to those same stretches at some time during the year. There are times when I use my fly rod or cast spinners or plugs for trout but that is my choice. I surely don't want to be forced to fish in a way that someone else wants me to fish.

True, this might not be an issue if we all had a chance to fish in those restricted zones at some time.

As for the license issue and the walleyes .........if you want to fish for fish other than trout, you don't have to buy a trout stamp. Trout stamps help pay for the trout stocking program.

Finally, as for talking about kids as a lame excuse, there are many kids who don't have a parent who will teach them how to fish. My father was not a fisherman and had it not been for my uncle's love for the sport and his willingness to teach me about fishing, I never would have developed the love I have for it now, so,so many years later.

[meppsman]

to clear up the TCA question , there are 2 types: seasonal and year round . The year rounds are not restocked weekly but, once pre season and 3 times in season. They are stocked again one time in the fall. The seasonal TCAs are stocked every week during in season stocking and there are no special rules until the final two weeks of the stocking schedule. The regulations of 1 fish of 15 inches or more do not take effect until the last two weeks of the stocking schedule. The KLG is no kill, it receives 2700 trout in the spring as compared to 40,700 for the rest of the south branch. The KLG is about 2.5 miles. The remainder of the South Branch is probably close to 40 miles of stocked water. So in reality the concentration of stocked fish is about the same, about 1000 per mile. The TCAS were created to give fisherman a greater chance to catch fish year round. They are not fly fishing only, you just cant use bait. I spin fish in them all the time and never had a problem from anybody.

[Bruce Litton]

I remember quite emotionally fishing in the Big Flatbrook when I was a youngster. My uncle would take me there on several fishing trips each spring. We fished during the early season before the fly fishing only regulations went into effect and I loved every minute of my time in that wooded wonderland. It was and still is a trout fishing Paradise. I cut my trout fishing teeth while fishing on the exotic Rahway River in Cranford so you can only imagine how I felt when I stepped into the pristinely, magically clear water of the Big Flatbrook. That feeling is being denied to almost any youngster today because of the "study" being conducted. It will be a tragedy to lose a generation of youngsters who will never have the opportunity to experience what I was exposed to when I was little.

It's interesting to note just how cynical I have become since the new regulations have been instituted. I didn't mind foregoing the rest of the trout season on the Flatbrook or the Gorge to the fly fishing guys because I was able to partake in the beauty and charm of fishing there even if it was for a few days. Now, I'm shut out unless I conform.

I'm not taking a position pro or con, but I like this from Billfish. Back in 1972, for my special birthday trip in October, my family drove from near Trenton to the Flatbrook, by my request, for me to fish. I owned a fly rod and might have used it, don't remember. I was 12, and I have no idea how I learned about the Flatbrook. My father didn't fish and apparently had no knowledge of Sussex County. Going there was by my request. So naturally, I took my son there many years later, when he was about eight, and we came upon, on a cool July day, rainbows galore. I had bought him a fly rod; he used it, and what touched me most wasn't the rainbows, though that was a close second; they were beautiful in that clear water. Rather, Matt's authority at his casting simply came out of the natural setting. I could hardly believe how deft he became by no practice, though he had cast before, but by just breathing freely. I got a photograph of him too precious to post, catching attentiveness and poise with the fly rod ever so subtle.

[Drossi]

As for the license issue and the walleyes .........if you want to fish for fish other than trout, you don't have to buy a trout stamp. Trout stamps help pay for the trout stocking program.



Argument can work both ways....if I wanted to fish for only trout (I don't by the way) why doesn't the trout stamp then act as my license? Why do I have to purchase an additional license when I'm not targeting any other species besides trout?

(Not my stance on things but one could make this counter point).

[Drossi]

to clear up the TCA question , there are 2 types: seasonal and year round . The year rounds are not restocked weekly but, once pre season and 3 times in season. They are stocked again one time in the fall. The seasonal TCAs are stocked every week during in season stocking and there are no special rules until the final two weeks of the stocking schedule. The regulations of 1 fish of 15 inches or more do not take effect until the last two weeks of the stocking schedule. The KLG is no kill, it receives 2700 trout in the spring as compared to 40,700 for the rest of the south branch. The KLG is about 2.5 miles. The remainder of the South Branch is probably close to 40 miles of stocked water. So in reality the concentration of stocked fish is about the same, about 1000 per mile. The TCAS were created to give fisherman a greater chance to catch fish year round. They are not fly fishing only, you just cant use bait. I spin fish in them all the time and never had a problem from anybody.

Thanks for bringing clarity and sensibility to this conversation:)

[AndyS]

Yes the rest of the South Branch gets 40,000 trout, AND people taking home stringer loads every day of the week. You can't justify putting 3000 trout in a 2.5 mile NO KILL stretch, then pile more in during the fall. I think special interest groups pile even more trout in and around that area. How many trout do you need ?

[Bruce Litton]

Embarrassing thing is I go there and get skunked. Oh, well, here it is 1:24 a.m. and as I began to say so, I heard a great blue heron squawk while flying by my hovel here.

[Royal Coachman]

to clear up the TCA question , there are 2 types: seasonal and year round . The year rounds are not restocked weekly but, once pre season and 3 times in season. They are stocked again one time in the fall. The seasonal TCAs are stocked every week during in season stocking and there are no special rules until the final two weeks of the stocking schedule. The regulations of 1 fish of 15 inches or more do not take effect until the last two weeks of the stocking schedule. The KLG is no kill, it receives 2700 trout in the spring as compared to 40,700 for the rest of the south branch. The KLG is about 2.5 miles. The remainder of the South Branch is probably close to 40 miles of stocked water. So in reality the concentration of stocked fish is about the same, about 1000 per mile. The TCAS were created to give fisherman a greater chance to catch fish year round. They are not fly fishing only, you just cant use bait. I spin fish in them all the time and never had a problem from anybody.

All good points. I would just add that the special reg stretches also concentrate fishermen. Often I'll drive along the Musky only seeing a few cars but at Point Mountain you can't get a parking spot. There's just as many trout in the rest of the river.

Even though I mainly fly fish for Trout and can fish in the special regs areas I don't fish them often because they are so crowded.

You just can't use bait so a spinner, jig,stick bait or soft bait are fine. Is that really too restrictive? If you want to fish bait and keep fish there are hundreds of miles of river to fish.

[Billfish715]

I hope that I'm not "baited" into another response but I've always been taught to share with others. My purpose in raising the questions and concerns about the TCA's and No Kills was to raise awareness of how a segment of the trout fishing community is being ignored. I don't care about bringing a stringer of trout home with me. I do care about being told that fishing in these areas is exclusive to fishermen who don't fish like me. There's a principle involved here.

Fishing is supposed to be a relaxing pastime. We all know that it's not all about the catching. NJ is a beautiful state and the trout streams to which I alluded are prime examples of it. Because I choose to fish with bait, I can't share in the aesthetic beauty of some of the most picturesque and natural trout streams in the state. It's just not fair that I can't have access to those waters for even a few days. I'm still not clear as to why those stretches exist in the first place. The only reason I can assume is that I'm not worthy enough to share a stream with others because I'm not like them. A court case about this could destroy trout fishing in NJ. Let's not go there! There has to be a way for all of NJ's trout fishermen to share the aesthetics and the fishing without being exclusive.

[Drossi]

I hope that I'm not "baited" into another response but I've always been taught to share with others. My purpose in raising the questions and concerns about the TCA's and No Kills was to raise awareness of how a segment of the trout fishing community is being ignored. I don't care about bringing a stringer of trout home with me. I do care about being told that fishing in these areas is exclusive to fishermen who don't fish like me. There's a principle involved here.

Fishing is supposed to be a relaxing pastime. We all know that it's not all about the catching. NJ is a beautiful state and the trout streams to which I alluded are prime examples of it. Because I choose to fish with bait, I can't share in the aesthetic beauty of some of the most picturesque and natural trout streams in the state. It's just not fair that I can't have access to those waters for even a few days. I'm still not clear as to why those stretches exist in the first place. The only reason I can assume is that I'm not worthy enough to share a stream with others because I'm not like them. A court case about this could destroy trout fishing in NJ. Let's not go there! There has to be a way for all of NJ's trout fishermen to share the aesthetics and the fishing without being exclusive.


You've made it crystal clear that you'll never accept any opinion other than your own. There is nothing that keeps you from fishing the TCA or no-kills except you're stubbornness about the no bait regulations. You have at your disposal spinners, spoons, jigs, stickbaits, if you care not to fish flies.

The legal argument is lame too. Makes you sound like a wussed out yuppie.

[Castaway]

All good points. I would just add that the special reg stretches also concentrate fishermen. Often I'll drive along the Musky only seeing a few cars but at Point Mountain you can't get a parking spot. There's just as many trout in the rest of the river.

Even though I mainly fly fish for Trout and can fish in the special regs areas I don't fish them often because they are so crowded.

You just can't use bait so a spinner, jig,stick bait or soft bait are fine. Is that really too restrictive? If you want to fish bait and keep fish there are hundreds of miles of river to fish.

I totally agree. I don’t fly fish but you are 100% dead on about those areas being packed and the rest of the river doesn’t have a soul in site. I stopped at the Ken Lockwood Gorge one day this past January and it was packed. I spoke to a few guys there and nobody caught anything. I went a few miles downstream and had a great day with plenty of fish and I never even saw another fisherman.

[15FOOTER]

Here come the Gardenstatetrout.com refugees and the elitist attitude. Welcome Drossi. This should be entertaining lmao.

[thmyorke1]

I have to agree with drossi, theres no problem with no-bait regulation in a no-kill stretch.

You're really not missing much in no kill stretches. You can still take a hike there in klg if you just wanna go there for the scenery.

And if you really wanted to fish it, there's plenty big lures that do the job.

[Drossi]

Here come the Gardenstatetrout.com refugees and the elitist attitude. Welcome Drossi. This should be entertaining lmao.

Greetings and salutations!:)
I'm about as far from elitist as one can get. The only thing I'm a refugee from is stupidity.

[Drossi]

I have to agree with drossi, theres no problem with no-bait regulation in a no-kill stretch.

You're really not missing much in no kill stretches. You can still take a hike there in klg if you just wanna go there for the scenery.

And if you really wanted to fish it, there's plenty big lures that do the job.

And while KLG is scenic, there are equally pretty general regs areas that aren't nearly as crowded and fish as good or better. Be adventurous. None of the special regs areas are so much far and away better than the general regs areas that I'd fight the crowds to fish them. And I've been at this a long time.