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  #71  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:06 PM
Gerry Zagorski's Avatar
Gerry Zagorski Gerry Zagorski is offline
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfish715 View Post
So, who do you know, or how many fishermen do you know who were surveyed? The key word throughout the NOAA charts and explanations is " estimated". So, the fate of the summer flounder rests on a part-time survey that is randomly administered to a very small sampling of anglers. It's results are then used as part of a mathematical formula which then produces an estimated result. To me, the only science in the matter is that someone uses math. As we know, if one variable changes in the formula, the results change as well.

The NOAA report indicates the stocks to be restored but seems to insinuate that they want it to be restored even more. The scientifically inspired decisions appear on the computer screens of only a few people. Once the numbers start crunching, the system gains momentum and strength. Once it gets going, it won't be sidelined. A conclusion is ultimately reached and the rubber stamps get inked and await the opportunity to be put to paper. The stage has been set and the actors appear to read their lines. The play begins; the drama unfurls; the rubber stamps appear and the cast plays its final scene. The curtain falls and the actors retire to celebrate and await the revival of their performance again next year despite the outrage and disappointment of the audience. " All the world is a stage". How true. How true!
Bingo and here in lies part of the problem... NFMS knows MRIP is flawed but they fall back on "it's the best available science". It's impractical to think they can measure it like they do commercials and weigh everyone's catch. So you do some sampling with surveys, you apply some assumptions, some math and you have an estimate... Is the estimate correct, who knows but it's all you have...

There are a few other problems worth mentioning here that effect our regs:
- Stock assessments... After all the landing information is gathered, which we know is flawed, every now and then you need to get an estimate of the stocks. Again, you do some sample surveys, in this case some trawls. You then count the fish, their sizes, apply some assumptions and math to it. This past assessment indicated there was plenty of Fluke but a shortage of younger Fluke which indicates the future may not be that bright and you slam the breaks on and proceed with caution.
- Better Science and the reluctance of the NMFS to accept it.. SSFFF has been fighting to include the sex model studies for years now as well as the actual fishing research they funded in cooperation with Rutgers on charter boats. Under the heading of it's not a good idea unless it's it their idea, they go a bit defensive about it but they seem to be coming around which is good.

You also can't ignore the political side of things
- You need to change the laws under which fisheries are managed and the Modern Fishing Act is s step in the right direction
- There is constant pressure from Environment organizations which would rather us not fish at all


Lastly, a huge organization like NOAA with an annual budget of $5.6 billion with $921 million going to the NFMS, you naturally want to protect it and you have to justify your existence. If you're paying them to manage the fisheries, what do you think they're going to do?? They are going to over manage it and be reluctant to invite outsiders into their sandbox. We outsiders typically only get to comment once they've decided what the quotas are and what we want our season, sizes and bag limits to be to achieve their predetermined quotas.

Let me be careful to say this is not a dig on the people in the NFMS, it's a dig on the system they are forced to work within.
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  #72  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

[QUOTE=Gerry Zagorski;524899
Lastly, a huge organization like NOAA with an annual budget of $5.6 billion with $921 million going to the NFMS, you naturally want to protect it and you have to justify your existence. If you're paying them to manage the fisheries, what do you think they're going to do?? They are going to over manage it and be reluctant to invite outsiders into their sandbox. We outsiders typically only get to comment once they've decided what the quotas are and what we want our season, sizes and bag limits to be to achieve their predetermined quotas.

Let me be careful to say this is not a dig on the people in the NFMS, it's a dig on the system they are forced to work within.[/QUOTE]



And that sir is called "Job Security" which is a big part of the problem.
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  #73  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:58 PM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Check out the attached links.

https://www.surfcastersjournal.com/w...-striped-bass/

Look at the 3rd and 4th picture in the above article. There was a video on line of that catch years ago that would make you sick if you saw it, appears to have been removed. If I do find it, I'll post it. Thousands of very large pregnant striped bass caught in gill nets trolled from the beach in Virginia, thrown on the beach, tossed in a pick up truck and carted off. Not sure the year or what the rules were but it was enough to make you sick. Check out the last picture which is a video of dead discard from commercial operators in North Carolina not many years ago. Thousands of fish killed by four commercial boats that were allowed to keep 50 fish a piece, cull the largest and throw everything else overboard dead. A complete waste of the resource. 200 fish supposedly harvested, thousands killed as they were slitting their bellies in an effort to sink them and avoid detection. What you're seeing are the ones that didn't sink, imagine what the dead discard numbers actually were. This is in my opinion the minority who could care less about the resource as opposed to how much money they make every trip. Damage done is extensive and irreparable.

Look at the first attached chart from The Fisherman Magazine and tell me what it reminds you of, in particular recruitment to size of biomass. Exact same pattern. Recruitment in 1994 was ~180 million, ~170 million in 2004 and reduced to ~30 million in 2013 when the biomass was significantly higher than 1994. Just look at the recruitment (egg production) trend from 1994 thru 2015. As Dan pointed out, combine all this with the continued onslaught of egg laden cows in Virginia and North Carolina that continues today both commercially and recreationally. A fishery headed for another collapse. Look at the images of beach gill net catches in Virginia and does anyone wonder where this fishery is headed. Sorry for the size of the files but these fish are large and predominantly females. Fisheries management hasn't learned from past mistakes, same pattern we're living with summer flounder. No inshore north south migratory species with a commercial market can sustain this onslaught of pressure year round and yes when it comes to inshore fisheries recreation absolutely contributes to the damage. Stripers get pounded year round, even during the spawn. Regulations have to be implemented protecting them for some period of the year, the fall winter months again would make most sense when eggs develop and the spawn occurs. But you know the southern states on the Mid-Atlantic Fisheries Council or the commercials with equal vote won't allow that to happen so once again let's collectively let another fishery collapse and deal with it when it's too late. Outstanding fisheries philosophy.

Even though it's not related to stripers, watch the attached video regarding the harvest of croakers. Seen any of those around lately? In particular look at the 1:45 thru 2:35 mark and pay special attention to the comments the narrator makes from 17:45 thru 18:10. Will blow your mind. Absolutely unbelievable and speaks to the prevailing mentality existing with a percentage of commercial operators which is unconscionable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-7bR1Ol8Fw
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Last edited by dakota560; 02-13-2019 at 11:28 AM..
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  #74  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:46 PM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Zagorski View Post
Bingo and here in lies part of the problem... NFMS knows MRIP is flawed but they fall back on "it's the best available science". It's impractical to think they can measure it like they do commercials and weigh everyone's catch. So you do some sampling with surveys, you apply some assumptions, some math and you have an estimate... Is the estimate correct, who knows but it's all you have...

There are a few other problems worth mentioning here that effect our regs:
- Stock assessments... After all the landing information is gathered, which we know is flawed, every now and then you need to get an estimate of the stocks. Again, you do some sample surveys, in this case some trawls. You then count the fish, their sizes, apply some assumptions and math to it. This past assessment indicated there was plenty of Fluke but a shortage of younger Fluke which indicates the future may not be that bright and you slam the breaks on and proceed with caution.
- Better Science and the reluctance of the NMFS to accept it.. SSFFF has been fighting to include the sex model studies for years now as well as the actual fishing research they funded in cooperation with Rutgers on charter boats. Under the heading of it's not a good idea unless it's it their idea, they go a bit defensive about it but they seem to be coming around which is good.

You also can't ignore the political side of things
- You need to change the laws under which fisheries are managed and the Modern Fishing Act is s step in the right direction
- There is constant pressure from Environment organizations which would rather us not fish at all


Lastly, a huge organization like NOAA with an annual budget of $5.6 billion with $921 million going to the NFMS, you naturally want to protect it and you have to justify your existence. If you're paying them to manage the fisheries, what do you think they're going to do?? They are going to over manage it and be reluctant to invite outsiders into their sandbox. We outsiders typically only get to comment once they've decided what the quotas are and what we want our season, sizes and bag limits to be to achieve their predetermined quotas.

Let me be careful to say this is not a dig on the people in the NFMS, it's a dig on the system they are forced to work within.
Rutgers study was well thought out and took years to conduct. Tremendous amount of actual at sea data was collected and analyzed, fact based data. One of the few aspects of this fishery with data not being questioned. And what happens, it's pushed aside by NMFS due to technical reasons in a process where everyone is crying for accuracy and arguably the study contains the most important and accurate data needed to reverse the decline in recruitment statistics NMFS's own data underscores. There's not a fishery in the world that can rebuild or sustain itself with a 90% reduction in relative recruitment strength of the biomass. Instead NMFS continues the use of data highly based on assumptions to make the same regulatory decisions which have continuously failed the fishery for the last twenty or more years. The fishery is not "Steep" so Mr. Witek if your reading this please don't embarrass yourself suggesting it is. NMFS data says it's not. And if you find the term "Relative Recruitment Strength" offensive or too hard to understand, don't give it more thought as some people have spin doctored the truth so long common sense explanations and terms become perplexing and almost impossible to understand. Don't want you hurting yourself trying to grasp basic relational trend analysis.

Washington has the ability to change anything if it benefits their agenda. NFMS is made up of the people who work there and as such you can argue the system they work within was created by them with the exception of MSA imposed impacts. Not using Rutgers Study in the latest Peer Review has NOTHING to do with MSA and is a mistake based on what we know. Secretary of Commerce Ross has all the power and resources available to change the direction of NMFS, the processes used and the regulatory philosophies followed and once again it appears we're going to be faced with the same failed options we've been faced with since the early 2000's.

When Washington wants something, they can move at the speed of light. When they don't, moving at a snails pace would appear fast compared to the pace they operate at. Just a fact of life we're forced to live with every day. Unfortunately this fishery and many others represent the later and the frustration is not knowing how to change it. I know what people will say BUT we've been saying the same things for a very long time with no substantive changes..........very frustrating considering what's at stake here.

Last edited by dakota560; 02-13-2019 at 11:31 AM..
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  #75  
Old 02-12-2019, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

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Originally Posted by Billfish715 View Post
Did that fleet look something like this?
Thatís just a half mile of the 15 miles of boats .
And that was when most boats had left their marinas for the season.

Anyone running a boat that thinks we donít put pressure on a fishery either has no clue , or their head in the sand .
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  #76  
Old 02-12-2019, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Man is winter fun !!!
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Last edited by Irish Jigger; 02-12-2019 at 10:22 PM..
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  #77  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Florida. Flounder (these are the same as our summer fluke. 10 fish 12 inches
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  #78  
Old 02-13-2019, 01:04 AM
bulletbob bulletbob is offline
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Wink Re: Fluke Regs this year

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Originally Posted by shrimpman steve View Post
Florida. Flounder (these are the same as our summer fluke. 10 fish 12 inches
Florida has 3 distinct species of "game" flounders in good numbers .. Gulf/Southern/ Summer..
they lump them all together as "flounder"..


We can catch 3 fluke here, and then 2 winter flounder, and then unlimited sundials, and unlimited 4 spots,..... we have MUCH more liberal flat fish regs than Florida does...
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  #79  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:49 PM
dakota560 dakota560 is offline
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Someone help me understand the following harvest data. First chart deals with historical and current commercial quota allocations by state extracted from the Summer Flounder Commercial Issues Amendment dated August 2018. Second chart comes from the ASMFC Draft Addendum XXVlll in 2017.

If you look at Chart 2 (Recreational Harvest) North Carolina and Virginia combined in '16 were projected to make up ~3.6% of the overall recreational harvest or ~230,000 lbs relative to a coastal-wide harvest of ~6.4 million lbs.. Currently North Carolina has a 4 possession limit at 15", Virginia 4 possession at 16.5" for recreational, significantly more liberal than all northern States.

Commercial landings in 2017 were 5.83 million lbs. North Carolina and Virginia combined represented almost 50% of those landings, equivalent to other nine states combined or ~2.9 million pounds. How is that possible?

Please review the third chart and following comments which were included in a letter from New York Attorney General, Division of Social Justice Environmental Protection Bureau dated March 23, 2018 to Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross.:

Because older and larger summer flounder are distributed further northeast in the summer flounder’s range, and possibly due to other factors, the center of biomass of the summer flounder stock has shifted northeast since the 1980's. Trawl survey data indicate that the stock is now concentrated in the northern mid-Atlantic waters east of New Jersey and south of Long Island, and in the southern New England waters east of Long Island and south of Rhode Island and Massachusetts (see Figure 2).

That being the case, how does NC and Va. receive 50% of the commercial harvest in this fishery which I assume are being harvested from our local and offshore waters. Would appreciate others perspectives. And while we're on the subject of location of the biomass and all the global warming theorists, this has always been my opinion. While there's obviously global warming occurring which needs to be understood and addressed, my personal belief is it has little impact on this fishery since a majority of the existing biomass per the attached chart still resides in our back yard. As with most species, larger fish seek out cooler waters, I believe the illusion which many believe of a massive northern migration due to climate change is in fact the result of size increase regulations causing less of a harvest of 15" to 17.99" fish establishing the geographioc relocation of the biomass further north. Global warming didn't drive them, average size has. Review charts 4 and 5. Commercial harvets used to consist primarily of 1 - 2 year old fish (Chart 4), fish which weren't even sexually mature. So essentially past year harvests in the 2000 to 2002 and earlier years didn't even effect egg production. Today with size increases and the harvest consisting of primarily 3 year old fish and older, almost every fished harvested negatively impacts recruitment. And NMFS, ASMFC don't even address, mention or question a 90% decline in relative recruitment statistics. A three year old fish on average is ~45 centimeters or ~18" with differences between females and slower growing males. Compare all this to Chart 5 which illustrates age to length and relate that to the commercial harvest information by age on Chart 4. The regulations have allowed smaller fish to grow, but with their significantly lesser egg production capacity it's had little to no effect on increased recruitment as NMFS hoped. Instead it's put a target on larger females with incredibly greater egg production capacity and caused the biomass comprised of larger fish on average to move further north. Still find it interesting how two states, who are more responsible than any other state for the last and potentially next crash of the striped bass fishery because of commercial over fishing, receive ~50% of the commercial summer flounder quota, a majority of which are harvested in our own local waters almost 400 miles away from their home ports. They have no biomass in their area which is why recreational landings are so scarce, for that reason they're given more liberal recreational size and possession limit and provided access commercially to harvest stock (almost half the quota) in our own waters. Someone help me understand the reasons behind these decisions and allocations. To add insult to injury, commercial harvest in our area back in the 80's was estimated to be ~46% of the annual commercial harvest, today it's estimated to be ~90%! NMFS IS LEGISLATING THE DECIMATION OF RECRUITMENT AND CRASH OF THIS FISHERY. 90% of commercial harvest in our own backyard where most of the spawn takes place, tell me this isn't having serious consequences on the spawn. The more research I do the more incompetent fisheries management appears to be in their interpretation of data and policy decisions. We're working our way to a 2 fish possession limit at 27" with a season starting on March 1st and ending June 30th. Level of incompetency is without rival how the summer flounder stock is being managed.
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Last edited by dakota560; 02-14-2019 at 03:55 PM..
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  #80  
Old 02-14-2019, 03:47 PM
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Gerry Zagorski Gerry Zagorski is offline
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Default Re: Fluke Regs this year

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyS View Post
Keep going !!


Andy maybe I misunderstood your post but when I saw the baggies and the pirate patch, I think you're encouraging people to keep what they want...

It's not only you but many others seem to have issues when people keep Stripers but it's OK for Fluke?

Point in case.... Someone puts up a deck shot with some Fluke here, no one seems to care.... But put up a deck shot with Stripers, and people loose their minds, you'd think they killed Flipper or something and the lectures start.

I'm curious to find out why there's a double standard or maybe I misunderstood your post?

Anyone else have any opinions??
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Last edited by Gerry Zagorski; 02-14-2019 at 03:54 PM..
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